Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016

[whole diary]

[JayMac]

Improved notices certainly will.

Fortunately, on the national network at least, we are not far from having nearly all passenger rolling stock free from windows one can lean out of.

[TaplowGreen]

Reading this thread, I note that some people have set out to blame the victim. That's not how we improve safety.

Psychologist Steven Pinker quotes a warning message that used to appear on portable generators and space heaters sold in the USA:

Mild exposure to CO can result in accumulated damage over time. Extreme exposure to CO may rapidly be fatal without producing significant warning symptoms.

According to Pinker, several hundred Americans every year turned their homes into gas chambers after failing to appreciate the meaning of this. The warning was then changed to:

Using a generator indoors CAN KILL YOU IN MINUTES

This has proved more effective.

Perhaps it would be better if the warning sign by an openable window said something more like:

If you lean out of this window you may strike lineside equipment which could kill you. Equipment may be much closer than you think.

Is "commonsense" no longer a consideration these days? I think most people would appreciate the danger inherent in blindly sticking one's head out of the window of a moving vehicle without the need for detailed signage pointing it out?

[Western Pathfinder]

Sadly Commonsense is becoming uncommon these days .

[ellendune]

I am not sure it was ever that common

[Red Squirrel]

That's as may be. My point is that a well-worded warning is more likely to deter dangerous behaviour than a blunt unexplained order.

On older stock, the sign actually read "Caution - Do not lean out of the window". The word 'Caution' could be taken to mean that you will probably get away with it if you are careful; it does little to imply that very solid objects may whizz by as little as 230mm from the window...

[Bmblbzzz]

The thrill of feeling a fast airstream on your face is a common one, probably a basic human reaction. Kids like to open car windows on the motorway for this reason, adults like to drive convertibles with the top down. Not just humans – dogs in cars are the obvious examples, I've also read of farmyard geese which learned to deflate tyres by pecking at the valves; probably they were feeling a similar thrill. So it's quite likely common to all warm-blooded vertebrates. Regardless of the biology, we know that people like it. Add in the geekiness of train enthusiasts who are trying to take photos of their own train, etc etc, and the knowledge that there "should" be enough clearance, and it's no wonder people do this. Say it's only 230mm clearance and suddenly it doesn't sound so much. A big DANGER sign might be ignored by those enthusiasts, cos they "know", as do those who remember doing so in the past – unless they've been informed it's as little as 23cm – might be better.

[ChrisB]

Iron bars across the windows to prevent heads etc being stuck out seemed to work when windows were generally openable.

However, this was openable as presumably the guard needed to do same at stations for operational reasons, otherwise surely that window would have been like the others on that train, sealed?

Thus, maybe lockable windows that the guard opens wuth a key if the openable requirement still exists?

Signs are no use whatsoever to the know-it-all enthusiast that ignores such warnings. Sealing windows would be the obly way to beat these people

[LiskeardRich]

Iron bars across the windows to prevent heads etc being stuck out seemed to work when windows were generally openable.

However, this was openable as presumably the guard needed to do same at stations for operational reasons, otherwise surely that window would have been like the others on that train, sealed?

Thus, maybe lockable windows that the guard opens wuth a key if the openable requirement still exists?

Signs are no use whatsoever to the know-it-all enthusiast that ignores such warnings. Sealing windows would be the obly way to beat these people

How do you propose opening the doors on HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train (Inter City class 43 125 units)) if all the windows are locked within a reasonable dwell time?

[Western Pathfinder]

This perhaps !!..
https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLC39A3192EA728442&params=EAEYATgBSAFYA2ILdFFzbG5tY0hPZU1oAQ%253D%253D&v=Jwm1xkExlG4&mode=NORMAL

[ChrisB]

How do you propose opening the doors on HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train (Inter City class 43 125 units)) if all the windows are locked within a reasonable dwell time?

Eh? I wwas referring to this incident, which wasn't an HST. If you want to widen the thread, please say so.

[LiskeardRich]

How do you propose opening the doors on HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train (Inter City class 43 125 units)) if all the windows are locked within a reasonable dwell time?

Eh? I wwas referring to this incident, which wasn't an HST. If you want to widen the thread, please say so.

The previous posts were referring to opening windows in general.

[TonyK]

How do you propose opening the doors on HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train (Inter City class 43 125 units)) if all the windows are locked within a reasonable dwell time?

Eh? I wwas referring to this incident, which wasn't an HST. If you want to widen the thread, please say so.

The previous posts were referring to opening windows in general.

Speed isn't really a consideration in this sad case, as the outcome may have been the same no matter what type of train was involved, so long as it had windows that can be opened. A collision at 30 mph could well have been as fatal as one at 100 mph.

[grahame]

From The Standard

One of London’s biggest train firms is facing a hefty fine over the death of a passenger who suffered catastrophic injuries when he put his head out of an unlocked carriage window.

Railway enthusiast Simon Brown, 24, was struck on the head by a signal gantry when he leaned out of the Gatwick Express train as it approached Wandsworth Common station.

An inquest into his death found Mr Brown had put his head out of a publicly accessible “droplight” window.

Rail investigators said there was a sticker on the door warning passengers against leaning out, but it was “cluttered” with other signs.

At Southwark crown court yesterday, Govia Thameslink Railway — which runs the service — pleaded guilty to a health and safety breach over Mr Brown’s death on August 7, 2016. Patrick Verwer, who was appointed chief executive last year, sat in court as the company admitted the breach.

[Bob_Blakey]

I am very disappointed that the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) are not fighting this; it seems that no modicum of common sense and/or personal responsibility is now required when going about our daily activities. 

[TonyK]

I am very disappointed that the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) are not fighting this; it seems that no modicum of common sense and/or personal responsibility is now required when going about our daily activities. 

The TOC is not fighting this, I reckon, because their legal department, solicitors, and a counsel's opinion have all told them that in the circumstances of the case, there is a strong likelihood of conviction, with much greater cost in financial terms. We have the benefit of some newspaper reports and a degree of speculation, largely outside of this forum. They have the file on the whole massive investigation, and therefore know a lot more than we do.