Overpriced advance ticket - have I missed something here?

[whole diary]

[Bmblbzzz]

I have long held the view that the ticketing is hugely and needlessly complex.

I would abolish ALL discounted advance tickets, and have a simplified system with just 3 different fares for any journey.
Peak, off peak, and super bargain, determined by the time/date of travel and the popularity thereof, with time and date of purchasing the ticket being of no consequence.

It clearly makes sense to charge more at busy times, but I see no merit whatsoever in offering discounted advance purchase tickets on a hugely popular and therefore very crowded train, nor any merit in charging a punitively high fare for use of a lightly loaded service because the ticket was purchased shortly before travel.

Would your system still have specific-train tickets?

[broadgage]

I have long held the view that the ticketing is hugely and needlessly complex.

I would abolish ALL discounted advance tickets, and have a simplified system with just 3 different fares for any journey.
Peak, off peak, and super bargain, determined by the time/date of travel and the popularity thereof, with time and date of purchasing the ticket being of no consequence.

It clearly makes sense to charge more at busy times, but I see no merit whatsoever in offering discounted advance purchase tickets on a hugely popular and therefore very crowded train, nor any merit in charging a punitively high fare for use of a lightly loaded service because the ticket was purchased shortly before travel.

Would your system still have specific-train tickets?

In general, no it would not.
An off peak ticket would be valid on ANY off peak service, and a super off peak ticket valid on ANY super off peak service.
On routes with a very limited service, one could end up by default with a ticket valid on only one train, but that would not be the intention or the norm.
For example on a certain route, "super off peak" might be defined as before 05-30 on weekday mornings, and with an infrequent service there might be only a single train before 05-30. The ticket would still be advertised as "valid before 05-30 only" and NOT "05-17 train only"
Of course if the 05-17 became popular enough it could be re-designated as off peak, with a higher fare payable. This alteration would only be permitted at timetable changes.

[Bmblbzzz]

And presumably off-peak tickets would be valid on super off-peak trains (and peak tickets valid on all trains)?

[Bob_Blakey]

...An off peak ticket would be valid on ANY off peak service, and a super off peak ticket valid on ANY super off peak service...

Under such a system how would you manage reservations, if at all, for the significant number of passengers, such as myself, who wish to guarantee a seat on a specific service? The existing ticketing system obviously has plenty of faults & anomalies but I believe that service specific Advance tickets are easy to understand by anybody with a modicum of common sense. 

[broadgage]

Reservations would be available as they are now for season ticket holders or those with open tickets.

[IndustryInsider]

Presumably some of the longer distance trains would be 'bargain fare' for some origins/destinations, off-peak for others and peak for others?

Would all tickets become regulated or would some remain priced by the operator as they see fit?

With changes being possible at timetable changes only (a sensible proposal) would they have to be agreed by the regulator or just enforced at the discretion of the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company)?

I've often suggested that a new franchise should trial such a system with the associated revenue guarantees should it have too much of an adverse affect on revenue either way.  This certainly is the sort of system that might work, but would be too much of a risk to introduce without a trial.  The problem with a trial of course is that it could only work on journeys prices by and operated by one TOC.  Of all the likely candidates the Greater Western franchise is probably one of the most suitable.

Sadly, I somehow doubt it will happen any time soon though.

[grahame]

As a mathematician / logic person by background, and a lover of puzzles, I've tried to think through this business of peak / off-peak fares, and a system that's fair to all and helps to balance traffic.  And I've failed to come up with is fair, logical, technically implementable easily calculated and understandable by Jo Public.

[broadgage]

Presumably some of the longer distance trains would be 'bargain fare' for some origins/destinations, off-peak for others and peak for others?

Would all tickets become regulated or would some remain priced by the operator as they see fit?

With changes being possible at timetable changes only (a sensible proposal) would they have to be agreed by the regulator or just enforced at the discretion of the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company)?

I've often suggested that a new franchise should trial such a system with the associated revenue guarantees should it have too much of an adverse affect on revenue either way.  This certainly is the sort of system that might work, but would be too much of a risk to introduce without a trial.  The problem with a trial of course is that it could only work on journeys prices by and operated by one TOC.  Of all the likely candidates the Greater Western franchise is probably one of the most suitable.

Sadly, I somehow doubt it will happen any time soon though.

Yes, many long distance services would fall into 2 different categories according to what part of the route is being considered, some might fall into all 3 categories.
As an example , the "golden Hind" would reasonably be "peak" from London to at least Plymouth, and off peak for most of the rest of the route, and maybe super bargain for the last bit, depending on loadings. Fares payable would reflect this.

ALL fares (other than specials like railtours or charters) would be thus regulated. The TOC would be free to set the level of fares, subject to any overriding government controls, but they would still be limited to only 3 different fares for any journey.
For example the TOC might set the fare between "A" and "B" at say £100 peak, £60 off peak and £30 super bargain. If the TOC wished they could alter these fares to say £108, £52, £21, subject of course to compliance with any government ruling that "fares are not to rise by more than 3% a year" for example.
What the TOC could NOT do would be to introduce a fourth fare between the two stations. Let them do that and they would introduce loads of differing fares all with slightly different restrictions.

The TOC could re categorise any train as they see fit without reference to the rail regulator, provided that firstly they do this only at timetable changes, and secondly that they remain compliant with the rule that no more than 25% of services are peak and that at least 25% are super bargain.

[broadgage]

And presumably off-peak tickets would be valid on super off-peak trains (and peak tickets valid on all trains)?

Yes, absolutely. And the other way round provided that the difference is paid BEFORE BOARDING. An off peak ticket should not suddenly become worthless if one needs to travel in the peak, but the extra would have to be PAID BEFORE BOARDING to prevent misuse.

[TaplowGreen]

Broadgage do you think that your suggestion may go some way to addressing the chronic and dangerous levels of overcrowding that we currently see, particularly on trains to the Westcountry?

I'm interested as to how pricing is used to manage demand, and whilst the new trains suggest a small increase in capacity for a short time, I don't see a great deal happening to address the issue in the medium/longer term.

[PhilWakely]

Broadgage do you think that your suggestion may go some way to addressing the chronic and dangerous levels of overcrowding that we currently see, particularly on trains to the Westcountry?

Going slightly off topic, but the only way I see of addressing chronic overcrowding out of Paddington is to.......
a) Pay for seat reservations (the TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) constantly remind us that a ticket does not necessarily guarantee a seat);
b) Introduce three levels of call at the PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains) barriers (shouldn't be too difficult to program the barriers)...
    i) Those with seat reservations;
   ii) Season Tickets;
  iii) Anybody else.
c) Properly implement the pick-up only rule at Reading.

[bobm]

b) Introduce three levels of call at the PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains) barriers (shouldn't be too difficult to program the barriers)...
    i) Those with seat reservations;
   ii) Season Tickets;
  iii) Anybody else.

One of the problems with that is the barriers control access to more than one platform so while one train might be on the "seat reservations only" phase, a second might be closer to departure and be on the "free for all" stage.

However I do agree enforcing the Reading only pick up might help.  Would probably need to be via on board ticket checks and whether staff can get through to do it in the time available is questionable.

[PhilWakely]

However I do agree enforcing the Reading only pick up might help.  Would probably need to be via on board ticket checks and whether staff can get through to do it in the time available is questionable.

Alternatively, for Westcountry-bound services, remove the call at Reading station altogether and introduce a call at Reading West instead with both exits manned at the appropriate times.

[TaplowGreen]

Broadgage do you think that your suggestion may go some way to addressing the chronic and dangerous levels of overcrowding that we currently see, particularly on trains to the Westcountry?

Going slightly off topic, but the only way I see of addressing chronic overcrowding out of Paddington is to.......
a) Pay for seat reservations (the TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) constantly remind us that a ticket does not necessarily guarantee a seat);
b) Introduce three levels of call at the PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains) barriers (shouldn't be too difficult to program the barriers)...
    i) Those with seat reservations;
   ii) Season Tickets;
  iii) Anybody else.
c) Properly implement the pick-up only rule at Reading.

a) Agreed that would help, but if that's introduced then TMs^‡(resolve) need to be prepared to do more to enforce them - most of the time in my experience if someone has installed him or her self in a reserved seat on a very busy train and refuses to move, the TM (if you can find them) will do little more than shrug their shoulders - this is marginally mitigated by the current system of "free" reservations, however raising prices will raise expectations.

b) introduce boarding controls at (especially) Paddington/Reading on days such as Maundy Thursday which are known to be chaotic and limit the sales of tickets for particularly busy trains- your point (c) goes hand in hand with this.

- Boarding controls would be unpopular, and as it currently stands of course GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) don't give a damn about dangerous overcrowding as whether people are seated, standing, lying on the floor or clinging to the roof they are still getting the same revenue.

[broadgage]

Broadgage do you think that your suggestion may go some way to addressing the chronic and dangerous levels of overcrowding that we currently see, particularly on trains to the Westcountry?

I'm interested as to how pricing is used to manage demand, and whilst the new trains suggest a small increase in capacity for a short time, I don't see a great deal happening to address the issue in the medium/longer term.

Yes I believe that it would relieve overcrowding to an extent. Remember that no discounted fares will be available on peak services. No more making overcrowded trains even worse by selling discounted tickets valid on such trains.
A while ago gross overcrowding on Maunday Thursday was discussed, and in that discussion someone stated that they had used a heavily discounted ticket.
Under my proposed scheme, busy trains will be full fare only. Possibly for most of the day on days preceding holiday weekends.

The gain might be relatively small however and the real answer is more rolling stock, mainly from longer trains rather than additional services as only a limited number of paths exist.