Overpriced advance ticket - have I missed something here?

[whole diary]

[TaplowGreen]

Out of interest, to what extent, and who, do GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) lobby for additional rolling stock to cope with long term overcrowding?

[grahame]

Out of interest, to what extent, and who, do GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) lobby for additional rolling stock to cope with long term overcrowding?

From the evidence I have (and bear in mind that I occasionally meet significant lobbyists / negotiators) I would suggest that theses days they work quite hard to have sufficient appropriate stock.  Witness, for example, the AT300 / class 802 work when they could have sat back on their heals.   But they're not in the business of lobbying for having stock 'just in case', and it's difficult to financially justify an extra carriage when it's only really needed for 12 minutes in the morning from Keynsham to Temple Meads, and 6 minutes back in the evening.  They are doing a very great deal to get the most out of existing stock / diagrams though - witness some of the dropping off of carriages (at Reading?) at the peak on trains outbound to Oxford, allowing a short extra train to be run once that 2 car detached set has returned to London.

There is a strong look to that future - not just looking at today.  However, you need to be mindful that the franchise isn't a long one, and investment that doesn't pay back until after the franchise might go to someone else has the extra hurdle of having to be safeguarded in the even of it not being a First company running it in the future.  We may also be seeing the effects of significant changes in Britain, and how they're making the future even harder to predict so making investment decisions more cautious.

[TaplowGreen]

Out of interest, to what extent, and who, do GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) lobby for additional rolling stock to cope with long term overcrowding?

From the evidence I have (and bear in mind that I occasionally meet significant lobbyists / negotiators) I would suggest that theses days they work quite hard to have sufficient appropriate stock.  Witness, for example, the AT300 / class 802 work when they could have sat back on their heals.   But they're not in the business of lobbying for having stock 'just in case', and it's difficult to financially justify an extra carriage when it's only really needed for 12 minutes in the morning from Keynsham to Temple Meads, and 6 minutes back in the evening.  They are doing a very great deal to get the most out of existing stock / diagrams though - witness some of the dropping off of carriages (at Reading?) at the peak on trains outbound to Oxford, allowing a short extra train to be run once that 2 car detached set has returned to London.

There is a strong look to that future - not just looking at today.  However, you need to be mindful that the franchise isn't a long one, and investment that doesn't pay back until after the franchise might go to someone else has the extra hurdle of having to be safeguarded in the even of it not being a First company running it in the future.  We may also be seeing the effects of significant changes in Britain, and how they're making the future even harder to predict so making investment decisions more cautious.

I note the brand new stock arriving (at last) to replace HST^▸ (High Speed Train) for the longer distance routes (although I think I'm right in saying that it doesn't represent a particularly robust future proofed level of additional capacity?) and some other additions but  I'm not sure investment in stock to reflect the huge year on year growth in passenger numbers, chronic and dangerous daily overcrowding, increasing unreliability due to the overworked/ageing Turbos constitutes "just in case" but I take your point about the length of the franchise being a disincentive.

[ellendune]

I note the brand new stock arriving (at last) to replace HST^▸ (High Speed Train) for the longer distance routes (although I think I'm right in saying that it doesn't represent a particularly robust future proofed level of additional capacity?) and some other additions but  I'm not sure investment in stock to reflect the huge year on year growth in passenger numbers, chronic and dangerous daily overcrowding, increasing unreliability due to the overworked/ageing Turbos constitutes "just in case" but I take your point about the length of the franchise being a disincentive.

Without additional tracks the only way to further increase capacity between Paddington and Reading would seem to be further lengthening of trains and platforms. Would 12 cars be feasible?

[ChrisB]

Was the super off-peak available, on the station search?

[paul7575]

Without additional tracks the only way to further increase capacity between Paddington and Reading would seem to be further lengthening of trains and platforms. Would 12 cars be feasible?

12 x 20m car 387 formations are already intended following electrification.   Hopefully they've already checked the availability of long enough platforms to use them.

Paul

[LiskeardRich]

I had a play at liskeard tvm earlier, the off peak was the main ticket offered, with super off peak only offered when selecting 'other ticket types' I suspect many don't press this button.

[grahame]

Was the super off-peak available, on the station search?

Yes

[IndustryInsider]

Without additional tracks the only way to further increase capacity between Paddington and Reading would seem to be further lengthening of trains and platforms. Would 12 cars be feasible?

12 x 20m car 387 formations are already intended following electrification.   Hopefully they've already checked the availability of long enough platforms to use them.

Paul

Though, unless things have changed, only for a limited number of potential stations - London to Slough, Reading, Didcot, Oxford and potentially Swindon IIRC^▸ (if I recall/remember/read correctly).

[broadgage]

I have long held the view that the ticketing is hugely and needlessly complex.

I would abolish ALL discounted advance tickets, and have a simplified system with just 3 different fares for any journey.
Peak, off peak, and super bargain, determined by the time/date of travel and the popularity thereof, with time and date of purchasing the ticket being of no consequence.

It clearly makes sense to charge more at busy times, but I see no merit whatsoever in offering discounted advance purchase tickets on a hugely popular and therefore very crowded train, nor any merit in charging a punitively high fare for use of a lightly loaded service because the ticket was purchased shortly before travel.

[grahame]

I have long held the view that the ticketing is hugely and needlessly complex.

I would abolish ALL discounted advance tickets, and have a simplified system with just 3 different fares for any journey.
Peak, off peak, and super bargain, determined by the time/date of travel and the popularity thereof, with time and date of purchasing the ticket being of no consequence.

Agreed.  One step in the right direction.

I'm taking your "super bargain" not "super off peak" as being a suggestion to widen the differentiation between the cheaper two tiers of the system?   I think I would agree with that, although there's already an arteficial peak of people who wait for the first cheapest train in the evening, and you may end up building an even greater wave if you push them back (say) 90 minutes and cut the fare from 20:30 or 21:00.   And I suspect you would need to have a tiered system at weekends to make the economics of operation work.

[IndustryInsider]

You would need to be very careful that your simplification doesn't cause more problems than it solves, as Graham has pointed out.  But I'm all for narrowing the gaps between expensive and cheap tickets and increasing flexibility.

[broadgage]

I would propose that peak fares be payable for most rush hour trains, and also on other services that are expected to be very busy, for example on Fridays preceding a bank holiday the peak fare would be payable on trains that would otherwise be off peak.

The off peak fare would be payable on most services outside rush hours and peak leisure travel times.

The super bargain fare would apply only to a minority of very lightly used services, mainly late night or very early morning services, and possibly to rush hour journeys that are made against the main traffic flow.

To contain the greed of TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company), peak fares would be limited to 25% of the trains, and at least 25% would have to be super off peak.
In the light of changing circumstances, the classification of trains could be changed, but ONLY AT TIMETABLE CHANGES, not in between.

Overcrowding is a huge problem and increased capacity is urgently needed on many routes. Providing this increased capacity is expensive, and IMHO^▸ (in my humble opinion) a significant part of this cost should be paid by those who travel at popular times. (not just commuters but also those who take pleasure trips at busy times.)

[stuving]

Some of these suggestions are quite like the pricing of TER (and some Intercités) tickets in France. Notably:

There's a lot more flexibility to match off-peak times to specific days. The "calendrier voyageurs" (which only applies outside the Ile de France) is in this PDF. Weekday peak is 6:30 -8:00 and 17:00-18:30, except on Friday when it's 14:00-20:00, and on Sunday there's a peak at 15:00-20:00. Holidays may be treated as Saturdays, Sundays, or have a peak 8:00-14:00.

That may be a closer match to when trains are actually full, whether with commuters or "leisure" travellers. On the other hand having fixed times for the whole country doesn't look appropriate at all. And it's only when your journey starts that counts for off-peak discounts.

Full price is in principle derived from a formula, so it goes up with distance per km but the rate decreases for longer journeys. However, there are some tweaks to that, for a variety of reasons. There is no general off-peak ticket, but a 25% discount for "Découverte" fares for over-60s, 12-25s, or groups of 1-4 with an under-12. There are also higher discounts (50% rather than 25%) for paid-for railcards.

Return tickets are priced as two singles, but ticket offices will sell two unmatched halves. Ticket machines (at least the ones I've seen) won't, but will sell singles from somewhere else.

That perhaps provides a box of possible features for you to use in designing your own system.

Oddly, while a return ticket is priced as two singles, it comes out of the machine as one paper ticket. I think that just proves the system was designed so as to justify my maxim: if there are two different ways of doing something, us and the French will find them.

[LiskeardRich]

To me much of the problem is overpriced singles or underpriced returns. If I buy a return it is only 5-10p more than a a single. Redruth to Plymouth a journey of 65 miles or so, I can get the journey back again for 5p as long as I return same day. That isn't right!
 I think A single should be about 55% of the return fare.

Liskeard to Plymouth on a return works out around 10p a mile or a single 20p a mile (with Devon and Cornwall railcard), for short distances 10-15p a mile is attractive to get me out the car. My Eco diesel costs around 8p a mile in diesel plus wear and tear and parking etc, but for the purpose of a day out I work out diesel, parking and tolls. For a family trip I will take the train if cheaper than those elements.
A day out in plymouth for example will cost £3 in diesel, £1.50 tan at toll and £5 all day parking in my choice of car park.
The train with my railcard would cost for a family trip out £3.85 x2 for adults, £1 child and 2 under 5s go free. That is borderline car or train as they roughly cost the same, probably the car edging for convenience, but me on my own or with the kids but not the wife I would take the train.

The bus for the same journey is £7 return per adult. Plymouth Citybus  currently have kids for a quid offer, but normally they are 50% adult fare here.