Overpriced advance ticket - have I missed something here?

[whole diary]

[grahame]

Why would I want to buy an advance ticket at up to £43.20 when I can buy an anytime single, any permitted route, for £31.50?

http://www.brfares.com/#!fares?orig=MKM^» (Melksham (Station code) - next trains)&dest=SUG

Edit to correct link

[ChrisB]

you wouldn't.....just as you wouldn't buy a pair of trousers if two prices were shown. It's no different

[LiskeardRich]

I've come across many examples of Advances being dearer than an anytime single, or in one case an anytime return.
I've assumed it to be related to the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) setting the price, as all examples i've seen are XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) advances on what is GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) priced walk ups.

[Tim]

I would have thought that this kind of overpriced advance ticket could be construed as illegal on the grounds that someone who sold it to a customer where there was a cheaper and equally valid (or "more valid") ticket available at a lower price would have quite clearly failed in their duty to provide the cheapest ticket. (can you think of any reason why this overpriced fare would be the correct one to offer the customer?)

A regulator with teeth would insist that fares databases were culled of such tickets and dish out substantial fines to ToCs ripping people off like this.  Alas we don't have that kind of regulator. 

In fact I would go further and suggest that seeing as we are prepared to give the ToCs the privilege of using criminal sanctions (including imprisonment) against passengers who defraud the railway with ticketless travel then ToCs who defraud the passenger with overpriced fares ought to be subject to criminal penalties too. 

[chrisr_75]

If my memory serves me correctly, I've also encountered this with certain FGW^▸ (First Great Western) (as it still was at the time) advance fares on FGW services.

[ChrisB]

Indeed. Not clever, but also not something for regulation - as long as there is no attempt to push the Advance by hiding the lower fare.

As I said above, there's no difference between this & a pair of jesns being offered at two different prices. You choose.

[trainer]

You choose.

I think we want to be sure that we always get the lowest fare option at all selling points. At least web-based purchasing points give us that.

[chrisr_75]

You choose.

I think we want to be sure that we always get the lowest fare option at all selling points. At least web-based purchasing points give us that.

Couldn't find it earlier n to link, but it seems the regulator is concerned that rail companies are hiding the cheapest tickets:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/26/millions-of-passengers-overcharged-as-train-operators-hide-cheap/

First couple of paragraphs from the above article:

Train users are paying up to £85 more than necessary on journeys as rail companies fail to show the cheapest tickets on two thirds of cross-country routes.

On nationalrail.co.uk, which sells tickets on behalf of train operators, analysis of 50 cross-country routes found customers can get a cheaper deal on 33 of the journeys by buying singles to and from destinations along the route.

And train operators are using a range of techniques to hide the cheapest fares, meaning millions of passengers are being overcharged, an investigation by The Times found.

The investigation also found that long-distance journeys can cost more than double the cumulative price of shorter trips along the same route.

[grahame]

I would have thought that this kind of overpriced advance ticket could be construed as illegal on the grounds that someone who sold it to a customer where there was a cheaper and equally valid (or "more valid") ticket available at a lower price would have quite clearly failed in their duty to provide the cheapest ticket. (can you think of any reason why this overpriced fare would be the correct one to offer the customer?)

My understanding is that such a duty is only required of a staffed ticket office.  TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) and on line sites may offer just a selection of fares.  And, no, I couldn't think of a good reason to sell purchase that advance ticket - hence my original question.

A regulator with teeth would insist that fares databases were culled of such tickets and dish out substantial fines to ToCs ripping people off like this.  Alas we don't have that kind of regulator. 

In fact I would go further and suggest that seeing as we are prepared to give the ToCs the privilege of using criminal sanctions (including imprisonment) against passengers who defraud the railway with ticketless travel then ToCs who defraud the passenger with overpriced fares ought to be subject to criminal penalties too. 

I agree with your sentiment, though I think I would want to adjust the detail.

[Zoe]

I asked about this elsewhere a few years back elsewhere and one response was that with an advance you are guaranteed a seat reservation whereas with a walk-up ticket you could have the situation where you are unable to reserve a seat if all of the general reservations are taken (even if advance seats are still available) so you could pay extra for the advance to guarantee yourself a seat.

[LiskeardRich]

On nationalrail.co.uk, which sells tickets on behalf of train operators, analysis of 50 cross-country routes found customers can get a cheaper deal on 33 of the journeys by buying singles to and from destinations along the route.

This implies they want them selling us split tickets where appropriate. Whilst it would be nice I don't agree with that being suitable.

As an example, transplit.com says if I wanted to go to Swansea and back after 9am today (from Liskeard) I'd save £46.65 splitting at Saltash, Taunton, Filton Abbey Wood, and Cardiff. its just going to make a ticket office so slow issuing many tickets. And then making sure that the purchaser is on a train calling at Saltash and Filton Abbey Wood.

[TaplowGreen]

For goodness sake - the elephant in the room is the mind numbingly complex fares system with its innumerable permutations and possibilities - simplify it, smooth out the anomalies and this will no longer be an issue! 

[stuving]

For goodness sake - the elephant in the room is the mind numbingly complex fares system with its innumerable permutations and possibilities - simplify it, smooth out the anomalies and this will no longer be an issue! 

Oh, but it will - or rather making the change would be very unpopular.

This story has been running for ages, so surely the industry must have a plan for a simplified fares regime ready by now. Or maybe there is more than one. But if they go for a French-style distance-related price for each journey, and sweep away all the easements and cheaper rates locally (like round Didcot), a lot of fares will go up - and by quite a lot.

Since the number of people buying the lower-priced fares is pretty small, especially for split tickets, making the switch revenue-neutral will only give a very small drop in the higher fares. And we all know what happens when a change produces winners and losers, don't we? The winners forget within a few days, and regard the new state of affairs as normal, while the losers remain resentful and feel cheated for years.

I suspect they are waiting for the clamour for change to get louder (and maybe playing commercial and political chicken with how late they can go). Then they can say "sorry your fare went up - but everyone else wanted this simplification; look at the papers". Not that that will help them much, of course.

[Fourbee]

Privatisation has made it harder to simplify the fares because of the extra fingers in the ORCATS^▸ (Operational Research Computerised Allocation of Tickets to Services) pie?

[Tim]

there's no difference between this & a pair of jesns being offered at two different prices. You choose.

...by the same shop at the same time.  I'm sure the authorities would have something to say if Tesco's started selling their products with two barcodes on - one giving the correct price and the other there for no other reason than to get more money out of a shopper who scans the wrong barcode by mistake.  There are of course plenty of examples in transport were you get to choose between a cheap and an expensive fare for the same journey.  Look at airlines.  You can pay £100 or £1000 for the same seat on the same flight.  But at least in those situations there are differences in things like change fees and refund rules.  The problem with overpriced advanced fares is that you pay more and you get a ticket with more restrictive conditions (ie one that can only be used on a single train).  It is all very well saying that the customer can choose, but with overpriced advance fares there is no reason for a rational consumer in possession of the correct and complete information to choose the overpriced advance.  The ONLY reason a customer would pay that fare is because of ignorance, mistake, inattention or because they have been mislead.  Those fares exist for no other purpose than to take advantage of the consumer.  

Plus, there truly is a free market in jeans and competition and consumer choice.  Most ToCs are much closer to the monopoly end of things than that and so they need a regulator like other utilities were consumer choice is limited.  This is why we have OfWat, Ofcom etc but not the jeans Ombudsman.