Overpriced advance ticket - have I missed something here?

[whole diary]

[Adelante_CCT]

However I do agree enforcing the Reading only pick up might help.

Completely agree, and as I have said on past topics on this subject, it is near on impossible to do these checks at either Paddington or Reading.

Paddington often has two trains boarding on adjacent platforms at the same time so unless the trains happened to be both pick up only at Reading, you would not be able to enforce anything.

It has been suggested before that you could man the escalators at Reading on P8/P9, however for this to happen you would need to have staff at both escalators and both lifts, and even then if someone with an off-peak ticket did get off and they saw these checks in place, they could just mill around the platform until the next 'valid' train arrives, there is no rule to say you have to exit the platform as soon as a you arrive at the station.

Would probably need to be via on board ticket checks and whether staff can get through to do it in the time available is questionable

No, on a given service you wouldn't be able to do a full check in time, especially if you come across an invalid ticket and have to spend a few minutes with that individual giving them a fine. But having 2/3 teams of RPIs^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) going back and forth every day from Paddington in the peak on various services and you will slowly wean out the offenders and word will get out to others, GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) could release a monthly statement showing how many people they have caught trying to get to Reading with the wrong ticket and the fines involved thus discouraging this practice further.


On a separate note, I have just travelled from Margate to Reading and back using an off-peak return. According to National Rail if I buy an off-peak return leaving Margate at 15:00 on a weekday and returning the following weekend which I have just done, I am unable to catch a 'peak' service from Paddington which is fair enough, (although due to the limitations of NRE^‡(resolve) I am able to catch a stopping service which this does not show, but that's a different story) although if I wish to purchase an off-peak single from Margate to Reading leaving at 15:00, it shows that I am allowed to board the 17:45/18:00/18:15 off Paddington, this shouldn't be right?

[Bmblbzzz]

Seat reservations: half the time they're booked and not used. Whether the reserver is sitting elsewhere on the train or is not on the train at all is hard to say, but it does mean a lot of people tend to avoid that seat till it's way past the supposed boarding station, so reducing effective capacity. Charging for reservations would presumably reduce this.

Somewhat off-topic, but it would also affect the number and way in which cycles are carried on trains, since you can't book a bike space without booking a seat too (it might be theoretically possible but no booking engine I'm aware of allows it – in fact most don't allow you to book bike spaces at all!).

[grahame]

On a separate note, I have just travelled from Margate to Reading and back using an off-peak return. According to National Rail if I buy an off-peak return leaving Margate at 15:00 on a weekday and returning the following weekend which I have just done, I am unable to catch a 'peak' service from Paddington which is fair enough, (although due to the limitations of NRE^‡(resolve) I am able to catch a stopping service which this does not show, but that's a different story) although if I wish to purchase an off-peak single from Margate to Reading leaving at 15:00, it shows that I am allowed to board the 17:45/18:00/18:15 off Paddington, this shouldn't be right?

There's some very odd stuff out there.

I once saw it explained that the "what's the peak" decision was based (originally?; in some places?) on the longer part of the route.   For journeys between Reading and Margate, as an example, the longer and dominant part of the route is London to Margate rather than Reading to London, so the off-peak decision was predominantly based on that.

You can still see some evidence of that decision in some ticketing to this day; an off peak day return from Reading to Margate isn't valid outbound in the morning peak, but is valid for return an any time later in the day, that latter being based on the logic that Margate to London trains in the late afternoon and early evening are hardly heaving with passengers. And that gives you a counterintuitive availability out of Paddington to Reading.    An off-peak day return from Margate to Reading looks to have the same limitations, so you could travel at 15:00 from Margate and then back mid to late evening from Reading.

It looks like certain off peak period returns have had extra conditions / restrictions applied after this original decision was taken - specifically removing the right of ticket holder to use certain peak expresses from London to Reading.   And the conditions on these are listed virtually down to a train by train level and hardly easy to much though and understand; there's a 'not valid' list of around 30 trains off Paddington, and the traveller looking to get best value is left looking for what's not listed if (s)he isn't taking advantage of an automated system.

Wonderful stuff   ... I would hate to be a member of the gateline staff at Paddington or train crew who have to either remember all of this stuff, or be able to look it up quickly so that people don't miss their trains!

[smokey]

I'd Never defend the Mess that ticket prices are these Days.

£37,452 for a Yearly season First class Penzance to Paddington!

But with grahames' example fare of £43:20 XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) Melksham to Sugar Loaf halt is that routed via Birmingham New Street and Shrewsbury whilst the cheaper (and easier) £31:50 anytime routed via Swansea?

[grahame]

But with grahames' example fare of £43:20 XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) Melksham to Sugar Loaf halt is that routed via Birmingham New Street and Shrewsbury whilst the cheaper (and easier) £31:50 anytime routed via Swansea?

Hi, Smokey.  The £31.50 anytime single ( £53.50 anytime return) is "any permitted".   I have use a return ticket to Llanwrtyd (next station) to go out Melksham - Chippenham - Bristol Temple Meads - Newport - Craven Arms - Llanwrtd and return Llanwrtyd - Swansea - Llanshamlet (break of journey if you wonder!) - Cardiff - Trowbridge - Melksham.   Oddly, not a single cross country service in there.   

Since XC are offering that advance fare, I would guess that the "any permitted" ticket would also be valid via Cheltenham Spa and Wolverhampton - making a Melksham to Llanwrtyd ticket a distinctly good value way to get to Wolverhampton.  Confirmed by the accessible booking tool (see attachment), but not something I intent to try on the ground.

Added P.S. that 10:04 to 20:00 option is amazing!

[smokey]

Being a Cornish Boy, I can't quite get my head round this little beauty.

Going to book a Advance from Cornwall stations to London Pad, it's nearly always cheaper to book your Advance ticket from the Duchy to Ipswich!   

[grahame]

Being a Cornish Boy, I can't quite get my head round this little beauty.

Going to book a Advance from Cornwall stations to London Pad, it's nearly always cheaper to book your Advance ticket from the Duchy to Ipswich!   

Yes, but remember that advance ticket rules are that you must complete your journey,  so you can't take advantage of that feature of the fare system if you're just travelling from Cornwall to London.

[IndustryInsider]

Yes, many long distance services would fall into 2 different categories according to what part of the route is being considered, some might fall into all 3 categories.
As an example , the "golden Hind" would reasonably be "peak" from London to at least Plymouth, and off peak for most of the rest of the route, and maybe super bargain for the last bit, depending on loadings. Fares payable would reflect this.

ALL fares (other than specials like railtours or charters) would be thus regulated. The TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) would be free to set the level of fares, subject to any overriding government controls, but they would still be limited to only 3 different fares for any journey.
For example the TOC might set the fare between "A" and "B" at say £100 peak, £60 off peak and £30 super bargain. If the TOC wished they could alter these fares to say £108, £52, £21, subject of course to compliance with any government ruling that "fares are not to rise by more than 3% a year" for example.
What the TOC could NOT do would be to introduce a fourth fare between the two stations. Let them do that and they would introduce loads of differing fares all with slightly different restrictions.

The TOC could re categorise any train as they see fit without reference to the rail regulator, provided that firstly they do this only at timetable changes, and secondly that they remain compliant with the rule that no more than 25% of services are peak and that at least 25% are super bargain.

How would you deal with journeys involving more than one change of train and more than one operator?

For example, a journey from Birmingham to Maidenhead in the early morning where you might class the 06:06 from Birmingham to Reading as an off peak train, but all the trains from Reading to Maidenhead might well be classed as peak at that time of the morning.  Would the peak fare apply as part of the journey is on a peak train, and if not then it would either be very expensive for a through ticket or you would be looking at split ticketing to get the cheapest fare?  That might become even more confusing if the 06:04 from Birmingham was classed as 'super bargain' between say Birmingham and Banbury, so it might work out cheaper to get one of those to there, an off-peak from there to Reading and peak from Reading to Slough.

That is the sort of thing that would need careful consideration otherwise the price of the cheapest tickets would go up, but there would still be a minefield of inconsistencies and workarounds needed to get the cheapest fair.  Not likely to go down well with the travelling public and would provide easy rail bashing stories for the press still.

Yes I believe that it would relieve overcrowding to an extent. Remember that no discounted fares will be available on peak services. No more making overcrowded trains even worse by selling discounted tickets valid on such trains.
A while ago gross overcrowding on Maunday Thursday was discussed, and in that discussion someone stated that they had used a heavily discounted ticket.
Under my proposed scheme, busy trains will be full fare only. Possibly for most of the day on days preceding holiday weekends.

The gain might be relatively small however and the real answer is more rolling stock, mainly from longer trains rather than additional services as only a limited number of paths exist.

I agree that cheap advances on Mauday Thursday is wrong, though I also agree the gain would indeed be relatively small.  There's only a certain number of seats and a certain number of trains, so you either accommodate as many as you can and accept it'll mean some trains are uncomfortably busy, or you price people off of the railway - on summer Fridays heading out of London to Cornwall for example the trains are pretty much busy all day except for the extreme ends of the day, the same with the return journey on Sunday.  The answer for to/from Cornwall is an hourly 9/10-car service from Penzance to London with limited stops east of Plymouth (just Exeter and the odd Taunton) with another service hourly between Plymouth/Exeter and London using a 9/10-car train mopping up the more local passengers from places like Totnes, Tiverton, Taunton and Westbury.  Though the same can be said for routes in from South Wales, the Cotswold Line etc., all of which are competing for precious paths into London.

Hopefully, on Sundays, the completion of electrification and Crossrail will result in more paths becoming available, such as the current afternoon Sunday service in and out of Euston which is practically the same as an off-peak weekday.  That, along with 9/10-car IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.)'s (or variants of) on most trains should help dramatically.  Though anyone expecting the run up to holidays and summer weekends not to always be a struggle on some trains is going to be disappointed.

[grahame]

Being a Cornish Boy, I can't quite get my head round this little beauty.

Diagram attached of the 10:04 option. Note that start, end and interchange points ARE to scale!   This is one I will NOT be trying; I suggest that there's a bug in the system and "via Shrewsbury" or "via Swansea" are both intended, but "via Shrewsbury AND Swansea" probably isn't! 

[broadgage]

I have long held the view that the ticketing is hugely and needlessly complex.

I would abolish ALL discounted advance tickets, and have a simplified system with just 3 different fares for any journey.
Peak, off peak, and super bargain, determined by the time/date of travel and the popularity thereof, with time and date of purchasing the ticket being of no consequence.

It clearly makes sense to charge more at busy times, but I see no merit whatsoever in offering discounted advance purchase tickets on a hugely popular and therefore very crowded train, nor any merit in charging a punitively high fare for use of a lightly loaded service because the ticket was purchased shortly before travel.

I am flattered to see that the esteemed Barry Doe has just suggested almost exactly the same thing in "RAIL" magazine (page 86, issue 807)
Remember that you read it here first 

[IndustryInsider]

I wonder what fix Barry would have to my example journey from Birmingham to Maidenhead in my reply #67 above.  Would be interested to hear your views, Broadgage...

[broadgage]

I wonder what fix Barry would have to my example journey from Birmingham to Maidenhead in my reply #67 above.  Would be interested to hear your views, Broadgage...

In some cases including your example, a simple through ticket could be sold and priced as follows.
The off peak fare from Birmingham to Reading plus the peak fare from Reading to Maidenhead, less a SMALL discount to encourage through ticketing.

In other and more complex cases a ticket would be supplied for each leg of the journey, with each ticket marked as to its validity.
Suppose for example that one wished to travel from Birmingham to Maidenhead, via Reading, during the off peak between the morning and evening rush hours.
They would be sold TWO tickets, one for each leg of the journey and with each one clearly marked as to the times that it be valid.
If the customer used the last off peak service from Birmingham, then by the time they arrived at Reading, the off peak ticket to Maidenhead would no longer be valid. Poor planning on the customers part, they should have either left enough time to get to Reading whilst their ticket was still valid, or they could have purchased the more costly peak time ticket. They would now either have to pay the difference for peak time travel to Maidenhead, or wait until after the evening rush hour when the off peak ticket would again be valid.

[IndustryInsider]

I wonder what fix Barry would have to my example journey from Birmingham to Maidenhead in my reply #67 above.  Would be interested to hear your views, Broadgage...

In some cases including your example, a simple through ticket could be sold and priced as follows.
The off peak fare from Birmingham to Reading plus the peak fare from Reading to Maidenhead, less a SMALL discount to encourage through ticketing.

In other and more complex cases a ticket would be supplied for each leg of the journey, with each ticket marked as to its validity.
Suppose for example that one wished to travel from Birmingham to Maidenhead, via Reading, during the off peak between the morning and evening rush hours.
They would be sold TWO tickets, one for each leg of the journey and with each one clearly marked as to the times that it be valid.
If the customer used the last off peak service from Birmingham, then by the time they arrived at Reading, the off peak ticket to Maidenhead would no longer be valid. Poor planning on the customers part, they should have either left enough time to get to Reading whilst their ticket was still valid, or they could have purchased the more costly peak time ticket. They would now either have to pay the difference for peak time travel to Maidenhead, or wait until after the evening rush hour when the off peak ticket would again be valid.

All sounds quite good in theory I admit.  Though I do wonder how it would work in practice - there would need to be pretty beefy computing power to work out all the possible combinations at the point of sale, though of course smart ticketing might make that easier in the long run if (for example) you were able to touch in and out on the actual train you are travelling on rather than at the stations.  I suspect that the first off-peak train on longer distance journeys might be even busier than they are today, as (whatever you think about them) Advance tickets do encourage people to use trains they otherwise wouldn't choose to take.

Something does need to be tried out on a future franchise to see what the passengers think of it, the revenue implications, and loadings on each train.  Is anyone brave enough though?

[Bmblbzzz]

I wonder what fix Barry would have to my example journey from Birmingham to Maidenhead in my reply #67 above.  Would be interested to hear your views, Broadgage...

In some cases including your example, a simple through ticket could be sold and priced as follows.
The off peak fare from Birmingham to Reading plus the peak fare from Reading to Maidenhead, less a SMALL discount to encourage through ticketing.

In other and more complex cases a ticket would be supplied for each leg of the journey, with each ticket marked as to its validity.
Suppose for example that one wished to travel from Birmingham to Maidenhead, via Reading, during the off peak between the morning and evening rush hours.
They would be sold TWO tickets, one for each leg of the journey and with each one clearly marked as to the times that it be valid.
If the customer used the last off peak service from Birmingham, then by the time they arrived at Reading, the off peak ticket to Maidenhead would no longer be valid. Poor planning on the customers part, they should have either left enough time to get to Reading whilst their ticket was still valid, or they could have purchased the more costly peak time ticket. They would now either have to pay the difference for peak time travel to Maidenhead, or wait until after the evening rush hour when the off peak ticket would again be valid.

It would be great to have the time limits for each ticket printed on the ticket itself, ie on the Birmingham - Reading and on the Reading to Maidenhead pieces.

[broadgage]

Would that much computing power be needed ?
The ticket issuing system would already have to "know" the fares for every simple and direct journey, anything more complex would be calculated by simple addition of existing and known fares, less a small discount for through booking (subject to the proviso that the through fare must never be less than the longest leg considered on its own)

So if A to B costs £40, B to C costs £88 then A to C via B costs say £125.

Or if D to E costs £3 and E to F costs £180, then D to F via E would cost say £180, noting that the through fare should never be cheaper than the most costly leg which is £180 in this case.

When one part of the journey is very short and cheap in relation to the main part, then in the interests of simplicity, the fare payable should be determined ONLY by the time of travel for the principle part of the journey.

For Example if the off peak fare from Paddington to Truro was say £100, then the fare from Vauxhall to Truro might reasonably be say £104, no matter what time the passenger left Vauxhall. PROVIDED THAT the passenger used only an off peak train to Truro.
It would be a needless complication to have 3 off peak fares to Truro from Vauxhall of say £103-50, £104, and £105 Depending on what time the passenger left Vauxhall.
Likewise, the same "add on" could reasonably be applied to a journey originating from ANY inner London suburban station, to Truro via Paddington.

If both legs of the journey involve significant mileage and cost then they should be priced separately and two tickets sold. For example Milton Keynes to Truro would involve two tickets each of which would be super off peak, off peak, or peak.