Station and on board train announcements - merged topic, ongoing discussion

[whole diary]

[Btline]

It is.

The doors can just be prised open, but the driver is warned.

[Jez]

And as for the Welsh-language announcements at CDF^» (Cardiff - next trains) they're a bleedin' nuisance when a Milford Haven service changes platform at the last moment: there are so many station calls that by the end of the announcement in Welsh before you get anything in English sometimes all you'll see is the tail lights of your train disappearing off towards Bridgend. No doubt it's been said before, but given the relatively small number of people who speak Welsh only wouldn't it benefit the majority if these announcements were in English first, then Welsh? Still, I suppose it's helped me learn some Welsh place names and numbers (Hendy-gwyn ar Daf anyone?)

That platform change seems to happen quite often at Cardiff Central - usually because the Milford Haven train comes in so early the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) Swansea service is still on the platform. I dont know why the FGW service doesnt just depart platform 4 leaving Platform 3 free for the Milford Haven service.

Also there are so many request stops on this service in West Wales it makes the announcement even longer as they run through them all again.  I dont mind the Welsh announcements tho - I prefer them to the English ones. And its amusing the way they say some of the place names.

Edited to remove attribution of quote - Graham

[G.Uard]

Some Stuff

Nothing to do with me.  Please could my user name be removed from the quote. Thanks.

Done - Graham

[bemmy]

Is there anybody is Wales who can speak Welsh but not English?

I doubt it! Drop the Welsh.

I don't understand this hatred of all things Welsh. Why do English people feel so threatened by the small country next door???

Imagine England had been ruled by France for 700 years, and everybody in the country spoke French fluently, and the English language was in danger of dying out, regarded as a pointless language spoken by a few of us backward folks from the westcountry. Wouldn't you nevertheless want the right to use your native language in your own country? Would you accept French-only announcements at stations?

When at Cardiff Central, I like trying to catch the Welsh names of English places in the announcements... I often used to catch the train "i Gaerwysg Dewi Sant", although nowadays they only run as far as Taunton. 

[Phil]

I think "hatred" is rather a strong word and perhaps inappropriate here.

The English generally I think rather like the Welsh - we admire their passion, their honesty and their self-reliance. I'm not so sure the sentiment is exactly reciprocated, but then the English long ago accepted that all our neighbours heartily dislike us: the Scots, Welsh, Irish, French and even the Cornish seem to like nothing so much as to feel aggrieved by some perceived slight visited upon them by English people.

I believe what irritates people about Welsh language signs and announcements is the fact that so few people in Wales actually understand them. If there was a majority in the region who spoke Welsh as a first language it would make a lot more sense - you don't hear people complaining about the dual-language signs at Southall station where there's a majority Bangladeshi community for instance.

Thus it seems like a minority interest group is dictating to the majority - and it's that sense of unfairness which tends to cause people to fret about it.

[John R]

I think "hatred" is rather a strong word and perhaps inappropriate here.

I believe what irritates people about Welsh language signs and announcements is the fact that so few people in Wales actually understand them. If there was a majority in the region who spoke Welsh as a first language it would make a lot more sense - you don't hear people complaining about the dual-language signs at Southall station where there's a majority Bangladeshi community for instance.

Thus it seems like a minority interest group is dictating to the majority - and it's that sense of unfairness which tends to cause people to fret about it.

Spot on. As a Welshman born and bred in Cardiff, I agree entirely. I've grown to accept, reluctantly, the need for bilinguiality, to pander to the minority. But when Welsh is put first, as in long station announcements, then it inconveniences the majority, to the point where they might actually miss their train. If English was put first, it would not inconvience those Welsh speaking, because as everyone knows, the number who can't speak English is miniscule.

By the way, most Welsh don't hate the English, far from it, though an exception is when we are watching 30 men run around a grassy rectangle with an oval ball.       

[G.Uard]

Why shouldn't Wales enjoy its own language? Granted, announcements in English first would be more convenient for a majority of travellers, but I think that understandably, our Welsh neighbours like to emphasise their identity.  Whether or not this makes sound 'commercial' sense is however, debatable. Given the strength of feeling for the Welsh language, I can't see it being 'demoted' to second place in the capital city. 

On the plus side, from listening to the Welsh language announcements at Cardiff, I can now get a good idea of where to find my train.  Some of the time anyway.

[John R]

I think the point is that most Welsh people are irritated by ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company))) putting Welsh first on announcements.  As evidence of this I believe this was the most raised subject in the online ATW "meet the managers".

So if those of us who are Welsh are irritated by it, I suggest those who are not Welsh don't try and justify putting the minority language first withough understanding the feelings of the natives.   

[Btline]

Is there anybody is Wales who can speak Welsh but not English?

I doubt it! Drop the Welsh.

I don't understand this hatred of all things Welsh.

Wo - I did not state that at all! I am 100% in favour of the Welsh language being kept alive in schools and on station notice boards etc.

However, when roads signs become hard to read, and announcements in Welsh cause people to miss trains, it gets annoying. Everybody knows about "Cardiff" means - so why do we have to have it read in Welsh...first?

I would put money on there being no people in the world who can speak Welsh and not English. But the language should definitely be kept alive - the loss of any language, esp Welsh would be a travesty.

Has that clarified my view?

[Btline]

...you don't hear people complaining about the dual-language signs at Southall station where there's a majority Bangladeshi community...

I have nothing against them, but what is the point of having dual language signs for one station?

Apart from one station near Newcastle (with Latin/English signs due to Hadrian's Wall connexion), it is the only station in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) to have non UK language signs.

If people don't understand the English signs, what happens when they get to Paddington/Tube?

Therefore.....

[bemmy]

Is there anybody is Wales who can speak Welsh but not English?

I doubt it! Drop the Welsh.

I don't understand this hatred of all things Welsh.

Wo - I did not state that at all! I am 100% in favour of the Welsh language being kept alive in schools and on station notice boards etc.

However, when roads signs become hard to read, and announcements in Welsh cause people to miss trains, it gets annoying. Everybody knows about "Cardiff" means - so why do we have to have it read in Welsh...first?

I would put money on there being no people in the world who can speak Welsh and not English. But the language should definitely be kept alive - the loss of any language, esp Welsh would be a travesty.

Has that clarified my view?

Yes thanks!  sorry I overreacted a bit there... living in Bristol I get sick of people moaning about the Welsh. Anyway I feel that the Welsh announcements are important for asserting the Welsh language and culture, regardless of the fact that all Welsh speakers understand English. But I can see there's a problem at Cardiff Central, because whenever I've been there, there never seems to be a gap between the announcements.

Station announcements in Cornish would be taking it a bit far though! 

[Tim]

...you don't hear people complaining about the dual-language signs at Southall station where there's a majority Bangladeshi community...

isn't that the point?  Have Bengali signs where there is a majority (or a very significant minority) who speak Bengali (or where their is a significant number of people who don't speak English).  This means Welsh signs in places were Welsh is heavily spoken.  But having Welsh signs in Newport or Cardiff is just stupid.

Making announcements or signs so long that understanding or safety is impaired just to make a political point is rather stupid.   A desire to promote a (perhaps laudable) political agenda should not be allowed to overshaddow the purpose of announcements at a station which is to convey information efficiently.

It is the Biligual signs where the name is the same but just spelt differently that annoys me the most - I mean what is the point?  Can't the spelling be standardised to either English or Welsh (perhaps to be decided by the relative prevelance of each language in the town in question) As an English speaker, I'd quite happily give up "Wrexsam" for "Wecsam" in exchange for "London Paddington" always being "London Paddington"

On the wider question of Welsh language nationalism.  I am a liberal and think that people should be completely free to learn whatever langauge they want.  What I object to with Welsh is that children are forced to learn Welsh whether they want to or not.  That is deeply illiberal.  In such a policy the langauge-nationists have moved on from saying "I demand the right to speak Welsh" to saying "I demand the right to force you and your children to speak Welsh" which is wrong and an equal evil to the English laguage nationalist a centary go who took at upon themselves to demand that others spoke English.

[G.Uard]

The Welsh Language Act 1993 and the Government of Wales Act 1998 provide that the Welsh and English languages should be treated equally in the public sector, so far as is reasonable and practicable. Interestingly, Arriva Trains Wales are co-signatory to the Wales & Borders Rail Franchise with the Secretary of State the Welsh Assembly Government. As such, the  continual use of Welsh as a first language in station announcements, particularly at a station, (i.e. Cardiff Central), where the vast majority of travellers do not use Welsh as part of their daily life, could be seen as a breach of legislation, if only in spirit.

That said, do the Welsh language announcements really cause confusion?  Personally, I think not.  Cardiff Central is pretty well sign posted in both languages, as are Newport and Swansea. Engish announcements follow those in Welsh almost without pause. There are also plenty of English timetables available at station entrances. Significantly, last minute platform alterations and other announcements are made in English only, (possibly station staff are not fluent enough in Welsh). 

IMO^▸ (in my opinion), the arrival/departure boards at Cardiff, which flash in alternate languages, are far more confusing.  Too little time is devoted to either language.

And...why should London Paddington not be Llundain Paddington in Wales?  I don't hear aircraft bound from Heathrow to Greece being announced as OA flight 300 to Athinai.  Similarly, where on earth is Marseilles, or Belgrade for that matter?

[Tim]

And...why should London Paddington not be Llundain Paddington in Wales?  I don't hear aircraft bound from Heathrow to Greece being announced as OA flight 300 to Athinai.  Similarly, where on earth is Marseilles, or Belgrade for that matter?

The prevailing trend globally is to defer to local spelling and pronuciation.  Peking and Bombay and Calcutta are now Bejing, Mumbai and Kolkata.  "Llundain Paddington" runs against that trend.  My point was that it is not unreasonable for English speakers to have to read Welsh spellings for towns in the Welsh speaking parts of Wales and that it is not unreasonable  for Welsh speakers to have to read the English names for towns in the English speaking parts of Wales and in England.  Merely suggested as a way of avoiding confusion and people missing their trains.

I do think that in a railway environment, the overriding concern should be clarity.  The worst example of lack of clarity in place names I have seen recently wasn't in Wales.  It was a Virgin WC^▸ (Wiltshire Council (Unitary Authority)) train to London.  The side of the train said "destination Euston" not "London Euston".  It is not difficult to imagine a non-English speaking and/or a non-railway familar passenger will holding a ticket with "To: London Terminals" printed on it, setting out to find their train and not boarding the train to "Euston" because they want one to "London".

[G.Uard]

   Carrying that argument to its logical conclusion, I await with bated breath the confusion caused by K^benhavn, Lisboa,  Praha and Moskva.  In Greece, London is Londino, in France, Londres.  Just a few examples from literally thousands. 

IIRC^▸ (if I recall/remember/read correctly), Mumbai, Kolkatta and Chennai, were changed from the colonial form to a style more appropriate for an independent nation.  Several other Indian cities have followed suit. 

With regard to Beijing, ( according to Wikipedia)..."Peking is the name of the city according to Chinese Postal Map Romanization, and the traditional customary name for Beijing in English. The term Peking originated with French missionaries four hundred years ago and corresponds to an older pronunciation predating a subsequent sound change in Mandarin from [kʲ] to [tɕ][15] ([tɕ] is represented in pinyin as j, as in Beijing). It is still used in many languages."