Jargon on tickets?

[whole diary]

[Bmblbzzz]

According to a report from the ORR^» (Office of Rail and Road formerly Office of Rail Regulation - about), there is too much jargon on some tickets.

Phrases highlighted for concern by the Office of Rail and Road (ORR) included ^London terminals^, ^any permitted^ and abbreviated text such as ^Anytime R^ meaning ^Anytime Return^.

The operators found to be using jargon included Abellio Greater Anglia, East Midlands Trains, Govia Thameslink Railway, ScotRail and Southeastern.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/02/train-ticket-machines-need-clearer-language-jargon-study

The only one of those that strikes me as potentially problematic is "any permitted" because how do you know which routes are permitted? You have to ask, so it doesn't really tell the passenger anything; except that some routes might not be permitted, which is in itself perhaps worth being told, though perhaps also rather obvious.

OTOH^▸ (On The Other Hand) I am (and you are) probably looking at this from the perspective of someone who already is familiar with most of this stuff.

[grahame]

Remember http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46587.aspx

In addition, the following stations, whilst not technically a London terminus are considered to be 'London Terminals' for ticketing purposes: ...

and

Tickets issued to or from 'LONDON TERMINALS' are only valid as described above. Customers with London Terminals tickets routes "Plus High Speed" are also permitted to travel in either direction on Thameslink services between London St Pancras International and Farringdon, City Thameslink, London Blackfriars, Elephant & Castle, London Bridge.
Shoreditch High Street is not considered to be part of 'London Terminals'.

[ellendune]

The RDG^‡(resolve) say it is rather difficult without making the machines too complex to use.  If most people know what they want why not give them the present menu but have a button for those who need more information to use the more complex system.  It works well in Netherlands and Germany. 

[broadgage]

I have heard more than one passenger opine that "any permitted" is a way to catch out people who travel accidently by a not permitted route. And then extract penalty fares/fines/fees/surcharges from them.

IMHO^▸ (in my humble opinion), ALL tickets should be valid by any reasonable route UNLESS clearly marked otherwise.
"not via London"  "only via Salisbury" "direct services only" and so on are all reasonable restrictions, that should be understood by any reasonable passenger. "any permitted" or "as advertised" are not reasonable in my view and are much too open to doubt confusion and dispute.

Where reasonable, tickets should be interchangeable between any TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) that operates services between the relevant places.
When this is considered unreasonable, then the ticket must be clearly marked "Virgin services only" as an example.
When doubt or confusion could reasonably occur, then the passenger should be given the benefit of the doubt. For example if a passenger holds a ticket marked "cross country services only" and boards a train liveried "cross country" then I believe that the ticket should be accepted. It is not reasonable to expect the passenger to enquire if the rolling stock is in fact leased or hired to another TOC, and that their "cross country only" ticket is in theory not valid.

It is widely considered that the train fare payable is largely a matter of luck, rather than being determined by a logical? process.

[eightf48544]

It is widely considered that the train fare payable is largely a matter of luck, rather than being determined by a logical? process.

I would suggest the train fare payable is largely a matter of chance or completely random rather than luck that the passenger gets the right ticket for the right train at the cheapest price for the journey.

[Surrey 455]

It could also be interpreted that "Any Permitted" means that any route is permitted. i.e. doesn't matter how you get to your destination, there are no restrictions.

Now that's not the actual meaning but I expect large numbers of passengers will see that on their tickets and believe that to be the case.

[grahame]

"Any Permitted" has always (? - almost always) at tautology - you're permitted to do what you're permitted to do.   On that basis, "via Trowbridge" tickets are also any permitted, with the permission being via Trowbridge.  But then I took two goes to get my English Language 'O' level so it's no wonder I get a bit confused.

"Any Reasonable" would be better?? With the subtext that if the journey planners offer it, it's regarded as being reasonable. Or if you want to make it complicated ... journey planners or routing guide if you don't find a suitable journey on the planners

[Bmblbzzz]

"Any reasonable" would be a matter of interpretation whereas I presume "Any permitted" refers to a list of permitted routes defined somewhere. TBH^▸ (to be honest) I think it would be better not to print any route info unless there are specific restrictions, like "via Gloucester" or "Not via Swindon" etc.

They could also do with using a clearer typeface on some tickets!

[ChrisB]

If the journey planner allows a journey for the fare you have paid, that journey is seen as "Any Permitted" for that fare

[teamsaint]

not sure if this is really the right place, but in any case the tickets don't actually make this clear...
If I buy a ticket that involves a tube journey across london, EG Salisbury to Norwich, I can use a variety of routes on the tube from waterloo to Liverpool st, and a number of stations are allowed to be used, for instance both Waterloo and Embankment.
However, it appears that if I want to walk from waterloo to Temple, and then get the Circle line to Waterloo, this is not permitted ( and I risk having my ticket eaten by the machine), because Temple is not on the list of permitted stations.
Which seems a bit silly, not least because getting onto any tube at Waterloo between 8 and 9 takes longer than the walk to Temple or Embankment.

or have I got this wrong ?

[Brucey]

not sure if this is really the right place, but in any case the tickets don't actually make this clear...
If I buy a ticket that involves a tube journey across london, EG Salisbury to Norwich, I can use a variety of routes on the tube from waterloo to Liverpool st, and a number of stations are allowed to be used, for instance both Waterloo and Embankment.
However, it appears that if I want to walk from waterloo to Temple, and then get the Circle line to Waterloo, this is not permitted ( and I risk having my ticket eaten by the machine), because Temple is not on the list of permitted stations.
Which seems a bit silly, not least because getting onto any tube at Waterloo between 8 and 9 takes longer than the walk to Temple or Embankment.

or have I got this wrong ?

You are correct.  You must start your cross-London journey at a permitted station, but you are free to end the journey at any station en-route to your cross-London destination.  The journey cannot be resumed, nor can it be started at an intermediate station.  LUL^▸ (London Underground Ltd) and DLR^▸ (Docklands Light Railway) still operate a system of reasonable routes, rather than having a define list.

In your example, you could enter at Blackfriars or Cannon Street, as these are permitted stations for cross-London journeys (see http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46587.aspx).