Penalty Fares

[whole diary]

[Richard Fairhurst]

At Charlbury station this morning, I was surprised to hear a pre-recorded announcement on the tannoy stating that Penalty Fares will apply to the whole GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) network from 23rd May.

The announcement said "for more information, visit gwr.com/revenueprotection". The information at that URL (particularly the second PDF) still refers to a limited penalty fare area.

I haven't heard confirmation of this anywhere - has anyone else?

[JayMac]

Impossible. Unless GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) are installing a TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine), Permit to Travel machine, or ticket office at every station on their network in the next 3 weeks.

Could the announcement just be that the Cotswold Line is being added to GWR's Penalty Fares area?

[Richard Fairhurst]

I might have been hallucinating, but I'm sure it said the whole network. It followed about a minute after a similarly worded announcement, by the same auto-announcer, about the change in bike policy.

The Cotswold Line has the same issues that you point out - there's no ticket machine at Moreton, for example, let alone Finstock or Combe.

[paul7575]

Penalty fares can be variously applicable by route, service, TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) or station.   AIUI^▸ (as I understand it) a service to one of the minor Cotswold Line stations could be a penalty fare service which would be applicable if you came from a 'full service' station such as Paddington.

In other words the possibility of a PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) can be dependent on which direction you are travelling in.

Paul

[John R]

Yes I've heard it too and if definitely said the whole of the network. It did take me aback too.

[grahame]

I have heard ... that it's to apply to the whole network in the interest of evening out the penalties that can be applied from place to place.  Also suggested that concentration is to be on finding those passengers who habitually don't pay. Final comment ... is that some feel it's happening in a bit of a rush.

[JayMac]

General rule is that if your origin station has no ticket purchasing facilities, or a Permit to Travel machine, you cannot be issued a Penalty Fare.

If GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) are saying that you can be given a Penalty Fare when travelling anywhere on their network then that is wrong.

[JayMac]

that it's to apply to the whole network in the interest of evening out the penalties that can be applied from place to place. 

But that simply cannot be possible. You can't penalise someone travelling from Avonmouth who hasn't bought a ticket in the same way as you can penalise someone from travelling from Weston-super-Mare who has walked past the open ticket office and/or working TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine).

Evening out the penalties? What does that even mean? A Penalty Fare isn't always a fixed price.

[stuving]

If you look at the two documents linked to from that GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) revenue protection page, you won't be hugely the wiser. But they do both refer to penalty fare zones and to penalty fare stations as not including all those in a PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) zone. Mind you, the wording keeps shifting - it's a Penalty Fare Zone in one place, and a penalty fare area in the other, and then there's a penalty fare line, or scheme, or ...

But there is this specific statement: "If you travel in a penalty fare area from a penalty fare station without buying a valid ticket, we may give you a PFN." (Our Revenue Protection and Prosecutions Policy, p 21). And there are maps, though again leaving several questions open. So it looks like that's the way they are going - but they haven't got the documents explaining it fully sorted out yet.

[ChrisB]

That statement is fine, I think. As BNM says, those without either ticket buying facilities or a Permit to travel machine win't be a Penalty Fare station

So what I think they mean is that RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) won't have any discretion to issue where they are able

[JayMac]

But the PA^▸ (Public Address), according to the OP^▸ (Original Poster / topic starter), says that from 23rd May, Penalty Fares will apply across the whole network.

The whole network includes the Cornish branches, the Severn Beach line, Castle Cary to Dorchester West, stations such as Dilton Marsh, Avoncliff, Castle Bar Park, Shiplake, Weston Milton, Culham, Finstock...

A simple final few words on the recorded announcement are all that is needed, "...except if you start your journey at a station with neither ticket purchasing facilities nor a Permit To Travel machine"

Passengers have to be accurate in their ticket purchase and use, on pain of criminal sanction. The least train operators can to is be clear and accurate in their pronouncements regarding passenger's obligations.

[adc82140]

The rules are so wishy-washy in the existing PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) areas anyway- I know it's been discussed numerous times before, but as GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) have made a business decision to make most of their TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) card only, PFs are unenforcible if you have the ability to pay the fare in cash. There are numerous reasons why you wouldn't want to use, or have a credit or debit card. There's no legislation in this country requiring you to carry one on public transport.

[grahame]

But the PA^▸ (Public Address), according to the OP^▸ (Original Poster / topic starter), says that from 23rd May, Penalty Fares will apply across the whole network.

I think what I heard being talked about was "Penalty Fare Rules"  - somewhat different in that penalty fare rules allow for the purchase of a ticket at the earliest opportunity where no opportunity was available at the joining station.  Though even there the new more detailed rule book is unclear, and even contradicts itself if we're reading pedantically.

[JayMac]

There are new 'Penalty Fares Rules'?

I thought the rules* as set by the defunct Strategic Rail Authority (and now overseen by the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about)) were the ones still in force.

Is there a link to this 'new more detailed rule book'?


*Regulation 11 of the Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 1994. The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 1994 were made under section 130 of the Railways Act 1993, as amended by the Transport Act 2000.

[stuving]

But the PA^▸ (Public Address), according to the OP^▸ (Original Poster / topic starter), says that from 23rd May, Penalty Fares will apply across the whole network.

The whole network includes the Cornish branches, the Severn Beach line, Castle Cary to Dorchester West, stations such as Dilton Marsh, Avoncliff, Castle Bar Park, Shiplake, Weston Milton, Culham, Finstock...

A simple final few words on the recorded announcement are all that is needed, "...except if you start your journey at a station with neither ticket purchasing facilities nor a Permit To Travel machine"

Passengers have to be accurate in their ticket purchase and use, on pain of criminal sanction. The least train operators can to is be clear and accurate in their pronouncements regarding passenger's obligations.

But the rules for charging PFs^▸ (Penalty Fare) in PF areas always did have a lot of conditions - about notices, ways to pay at stations, staff training, etc. So the exclusion of stations not listed as PF stations isn't new. If the PF area is extended, that doesn't mean all the newly included stations will be PF stations.

I had assumed it was a requirement for PF area that only a few stations were excluded. The current rules under which PF schemes operate (as opposed to the rules for passengers) were explained by the SRA^» (Strategic Rail Authority - about) here (I don't know if here's a current equivalent of this). The relevant bit is part of section 4 "How we will decide whether to approve a penalty fares scheme" (my emphaisis):

Penalty fares stations
4.4
Passengers on a penalty fares train may only be charged a penalty fare if they got on that train
at a station which has been named as a ^penalty fares station^ by the relevant penalty fares
scheme. At these stations, penalty fares warning notices must be displayed and sufficient
ticket facilities provided.
4.5
Operators must normally name each of the stations served by penalty fares trains as a penalty
fares station. For example, if all trains within an area bounded by stations x, y and z have been
named  as  penalty  fares  trains,  all  stations  within  that  area,  including  x,  y  and  z,  should
normally be named as penalty fares stations. However, an operator may not want to include
certain stations for a number of reasons. For example, if the station:
^ has no ticket facilities as it is unstaffed, and not enough passengers use the station to justify
a ticket or ^permit to travel^ machine (PERTIS^▸ (Permit to travel));
^ has no ticket facilities as it is unstaffed, and the amount of vandalism means that it is not
practical to maintain an operational ticket or ^permit to travel^ machine; or
^ serves a port or airport and is used by a large number of foreign visitors and people who do
not often travel by train, making it undesirable to charge penalty fares to passengers from
this station.
Operators must make sure that if these stations are not made penalty fares stations, this does
not cause confusion or make the scheme difficult to explain to passengers.

At the start of section 4, it says: "A penalty fares scheme is most suited to urban or suburban train
services where most stations have ticket facilities, and where busy trains and short intervals
between stations make it impossible to check every passenger^s ticket between every stop." So do FGW^▸ (First Great Western) now consider their whole network is like that?