A question about replacement bus services

[whole diary]

[BerkshireBugsy]

I've posted this in across the west but it was triggered as a result of an experience on the Kennet line earlier today.

I flew back down from Glasgow to Gatwick last night and we were sat at the gate due to technical problems with the aircraft which meant they couldn't use the normal disembarking process. So we were about 50 minutes later than we should have been getting into the (north) terminal building.

This meant I couldn't catch the original Gatwick to Reading train service I intended to but got the 22:20 or there about's which arrived bang on time at RDG^‡(resolve) - so far so good.

My train to Thatcham was waiting on P1 and was showing on time. Had a quick chat with the driver who explained that  they were putting some wires up in the area tonight...really friendly guy but I digress.

At 00:21 he announced that the service had been cancelled - the reason he gave us was due to (what I believe) was a sickness in the signalling centre. He had just found this out but what surprised me was that there were replacement buses waiting on the north side of the station.

This is where the challenge started. The bus driver wasn't familiar with the route he had to do so to cut a long story short I ended up being his satnav - guiding him to the stations along the route because he really didn't have the first idea where we had to go. Don't get me wrong he was friendly etc but this just wasn't his normal territory - I guess this is part of the challenge of organising replacement services at short notice.

So my question (at last) is I know the replacement buses are only supposed to stop at the stations the train would normally stop at but how close are they supposed to get to the stations? For example at Theale I got him to pull up next to the car park and Aldermaston in the A4 layby but I didn't want to cause the driver additional problems by taking him to a location that he wouldn't have trouble getting out of. Thatcham wasn't a problem because, for some reason, I know this one well

Ta BB

 

[ChrisB]

Bus Replacement stops at each station are all identified - and thus ought to be notified to the bus drivers.

They are marked on the station map on the National Rail website, and ought to be in the station info on the operator's site too

[John R]

Is the bus is meant to pick up too, would passengers waiting be left behind if the bus didn't go to the appropriate place?

[BerkshireBugsy]

Thank you guys. I agree that the drivers should know where they are meant to go but this wasn't the case last night. The driver was very competent but English was not his first language but his English was much better than my Polish if you get my meaning

[ChrisB]

That ought to be fed back to @GWRHelp so they can raise it with their supplier(s)

[Billhere]

Having had the experience of driving rail replacement coaches, mostly at weekends, the information supplied was always a bit of the sparse side.

Newbury - Reading was always Newbury Racecourse (Hambridge Rd opp the Station), Thatcham Station, Midgham (Woolhampton) on the A4 opposite the road to the Station, Aldermaston, A4 by Marley Tiles Crossroads, Theale Station, Reading West at the Oxford Road end and Reading. The A4 stops stopped the embarrassment of the driver who got into Midgham car park ok, and then took an hour to get out.

Who can forget Guildford to Gatwick all Stations, driving into Shalford and then having to reverse out, or Dorking where there were no signs at all to guide passengers. Route worked out in advance, if you knew, unlike Basingstoke to Weybridge all Stations at short notice done from a map on the knee.  Railway knowledge came into play there to try and work out which station was next, and then how to get there.

A gutty, unthankful job where Driver information might just show the stations involved and the time expected there. Passengers play an essential part in guiding the driver sometimes if only to make sure they get there.

Several times now I have phoned the GW^▸ (Great Western) Information Specialist at Swindon to let them know that the crossing at Kintbury was closed and drivers should divert another way en route to/from Bedwyn. It saves the driver coming in from the A4 and then having to reverse back all way as happened once. We never see the buses, I suppose they stop in the village near the shop. Nobody left behind yet as far as  I know.

The FGW^▸ (First Great Western) road transport is based up in Bolton, Burnley somewhere and is the remains of what was Frazer Eagle. All they get is the requirement to provide the transport, they put it out to tender and it goes from there. I think the detail  is pretty sparse until the lucky coach company has been selected.

Short notice? -  more of a question of getting who you can, and probably running without any details other than intermediate stops and destination. If it is a local firm you may be ok.

Glad not to do that anymore, very stressful.

[BerkshireBugsy]

...

Newbury - Reading was always Newbury Racecourse (Hambridge Rd opp the Station), Thatcham Station, Midgham (Woolhampton) on the A4 opposite the road to the Station, Aldermaston, A4 by Marley Tiles Crossroads, Theale Station, Reading West at the Oxford Road end and Reading. The A4 stops stopped the embarrassment of the driver who got into Midgham car park ok, and then took an hour to get out.

Phew - those are the stops and drop off points I led him to so feel better now!

Who can forget Guildford to Gatwick all Stations, driving into Shalford and then having to reverse out, or Dorking where there were no signs at all to guide passengers. Route worked out in advance, if you knew, unlike Basingstoke to Weybridge all Stations at short notice done from a map on the knee.  Railway knowledge came into play there to try and work out which station was next, and then how to get there.

Yuch! I would not want to be on or driving a bus replacement service for that route...thankfully it was the normal train and not a bus.

[Tim]

probably running without any details other than intermediate stops and destination.

Is such an approach really legal given today's approach to health and safety?

 If the bus takes a wrong route and strikes a bridge or runs down a child on a road with a weight limit on which it ought not to have been, then clearly the driver takes primary responsibility, but I would not be at all surprised if the HSE^▸ (Health and Safety Executive) looked into the back office arrangements as well and criticised and/or prosecuted a firm that sent a poorly trained driver out without at least a briefing.
 

[Fourbee]

Who can forget Guildford to Gatwick all Stations

I asked FGW^▸ (First Great Western) Customer Services once where the pickup point for Farnborough North was and they didn't know, so what hope the driver has I don't know.

SWT^▸ (South West Trains)'s efforts are better where they actually produce .pdfs/detailed station posters with this information on.

[ChrisB]

The drivers' packs I've seen have included prints of these pdf's, and recommended routes

[Fourbee]

Co-incidentally I am reading 2 .pdfs about upcoming work on SWT^▸ (South West Trains) this weekend. Would anyone who is bored care to have a guess at what route the replacement bus would take, I can't work it out at all from the pickup points:

http://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/uploads/160410alton.pdf
http://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/uploads/160410camberley.pdf

[Billhere]

A few points worth a response bearing in mind I left the coaching industry more than two years ago.

A Drivers first language is of no import, he will be fully licenced to drive a coach and will hold a CPC (Certificate of Professional Competency) which is a five day course, in English. Overall there is a shortage of PCV Drivers nationally, it has been the same for years which is why there are now foreign Drivers in the industry, it is far better paid than at home. It is true to say that many drivers are now in the middle age to old group. Their CPC will expire in 2018, and they will need to do the course again. If you do it yourself then it is five days at ^90 a day. If like me you are over sixty five then you will also require an annual medical. I turned it all in when my Doctor wanted ^150 to provide me with one. Worth it, I don't think so, and many older ones think the same, so it won't get better anytime soon.

In my days of driving then a route map was an extreme rarity, you were left to get on with it. With rail replacement it came in three different forms. Good, middling and nothing. I did a job with Arriva XCountry backwards and forwards Reading to Basingstoke all day. Good pack, all the details you wanted, notices for the screens, proper timetable, and driver information including stating quite categorically that tickets were not to be checked. SWT^▸ (South West Trains) have their own rail replacement department (based at Waterloo I think),  and a fleet of dedicated double deckers so all their drivers know the routes. Hired in transport got very little presuming you knew the way, but as you are mostly on main roads low bridges do not always come into it.

FGW^▸ (First Great Western), loosely controlled from another company in the far North gave you window stickers (provide you own bluetack), and a schedule. You take your instructions from the Bus Marshalls at the start points, and you have no contact with anybody else.

It's a wonder it all works, but it does. If you go wrong then you won't the second time. It is a strange industry, I left it to come to the organisation of the railways! Knowledge is the key and there is a coach drivers forum worth looking at if you are interested, it is a bit of an eye opener, as well as a magnet for enquiries and information. http://www.coachdriverforum.me.uk/welcome/

As for setting out the route I would not want somebody in Bolton telling me the best way of getting from Newbury to Bedwyn via Kintbury and Hungerford as the most obvious route on a map is not necessarily the best one. That Driver at Reading the other night was probably just in off another job and told to go to Reading and work down to Newbury so no time for maps or timetables.

[BerkshireBugsy]

...

A Drivers first language is of no import, he will be fully licenced to drive a coach and will hold a CPC (Certificate of Professional Competency) which is a five day course, in English. Overall there is a shortage of PCV Drivers nationally, it has been the same for years which is why there are now foreign Drivers in the industry, it is far better paid than at home. It is true to say that many drivers are now in the middle age to old group. Their CPC will expire in 2018, and they will need to do the course again. If you do it yourself then it is five days at ^90 a day. If like me you are over sixty five then you will also require an annual medical. I turned it all in when my Doctor wanted ^150 to provide me with one. Worth it, I don't think so, and many older ones think the same, so it won't get better anytime soon.

...

I agree in theory that the drivers first language is of no importance but in this case I (being the human sat nav) had to communicate instructions and directions to him in the only language I know, which is English. I have no doubt in terms of safety this driver was competent it was just difficult to communicate with him.

Regards

BB

[grahame]

...

A Drivers first language is of no import, he will be fully licenced to drive a coach and will hold a CPC (Certificate of Professional Competency) which is a five day course, in English ...


If you do it yourself then it is five days at ^90 a day. If like me you are over sixty five then you will also require an annual medical. I turned it all in when my Doctor wanted ^150 to provide me with one. Worth it, I don't think so, and many older ones think the same, so it won't get better anytime soon.
...

I agree in theory that the drivers first language is of no importance but in this case I (being the human sat nav) had to communicate instructions and directions to him in the only language I know, which is English. I have no doubt in terms of safety this driver was competent it was just difficult to communicate with him.

Regards

BB

Not rail replacement - but a couple of comments

a) In my view, the ability to make yourself heard and understood by your customers is a key quality that should be looked for in a bus driver unless a conductor /clippie is also present.   

A none-unique example at Bath Bus station on Saturday last, where two bays were taken over by rail replacement and the rest of the place was in its familiar much less organised state  (huge crowds, virtually all bays occupied and buses leaving from wherever they could find a space, departure board (tiny things up at the end of the hall) loosing buses that were late and showing [until that point] where they should go from and not where they were actually going from ...)

The bus two bays up from the Bowerhill / Melksham bay, about 5 minutes after the final 272 (at 16:28) was supposed to leave, changes his blinds to 272; by that time he's already gone off the board, which had told us the scheduled bay only.  I noticed "272" and kept an eye open as I wasn't sure if this was incoming our outgoing.  Driver comes in to bus station hall, says something unclear (attempts to raise his voice) and gets back on the bus.  One or two people have got on.

I said to people hanging around "I think that's the 272 up there"; some looked doubtful but we went over and,sure enough, it was and within a couple of minutes we were away.

Long story - with the main fixes being needed to departure board, a tannoy system, and perhaps reducing the frequency of bay changes by replanning.   But never the less, the ability to communicate better with the public (understandable and louder) would have been a big help.   Not a unique happening;  I  don't know how often someone realises, and how often people get left behind - they may have been left on Saturday as my "is that our bus" wasn't exactly loud or certain.

b) The issue of bus drivers needing medicals, etc, after 65 ... a serious issue and I appreciate the absolute need to be sure and for safety.  One of the effects of the tighter rules [than they were in the past] is a reduction in available drivers as volunteers for community services.  With an increase in the normal / typical retirement age from main-life careers meaning many don't start until later, and the increased regulation and controls meaning that many who are fit give up cos they can't be bothered with the paperwork or afford the cost, finding enough community drivers for a reliable service pool is the cap on many of these operations.    The suggestion of option (6) in the Wiltshire Consultation (just closed) that all support for regular bus company operation of specific services be withdrawn, to be replace by a limited amount of seed money for community operators is in my view impractical and implementation of this policy would lead to the wipeout of 40% of the countey's busses (44% are supported at the moment; I'm suggesting a maximum of 1 in 10 of those being picked up by the community)

[Worcester_Passenger]

At least they were using Bath Bus Station. Though it's no excuse for screwing up the existing bus passengers.

In 2008, I had to go to Bradford (the big one in West Yorkshire) on a Sunday (I'd normally avoid travelling by train on a Sunday). The last stage from Leeds to Bradford was a rail replacement bus. A nice coach, waiting just outside the main entrance of Leeds station.

At Bradford, there's a huge "Transport Interchange" for buses and trains. We turned into the bus part of this, and then carefully avoided parking in any of the bus bays. Instead, we ended up in the former parcels bay at the far end of the station platforms. Goodness only knows why - a lot of the passengers were probably going to use the bus. Poor quality photo attached.