1903 Paddington - Plymouth 24th March

[whole diary]

[ChrisB]

It would be the walk-up fares that caused overcrowding if you ban Advances though....most I reckon were pax visiting relatives for Easter, not holiday-makers. And thus would grumble but still pay

Make these trains reserved only(I'm sure this used to happen?), no reservation, no travel. Season holders then make up (no reservations in E of course) the 'overs'. It would need extreme heavy advertising. And possibly a queuing system for the trains (including the extra 1933)

The BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) reported thus on a train at Plymouth

Passengers forced off train at Plymouth due to overcrowding

About 150 train passengers were told to leave an overcrowded train because of safety concerns.

British Transport Police helped Great Western Railway (GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway)) staff with some passengers on the London Paddington to Penzance service who refused to leave at Plymouth.

GWR provided another train to Penzance later on Good Friday and said the service had been busier than usual.

It said it was looking at ways to prevent a similar situation on Monday.

Passengers tweeted photos of people lying in the aisles

A spokesman from GWR said the 10:00 GMT service was "very busy" when it left London Paddington and it "picked up more passengers" as it travelled towards Penzance.

"Two services arrived at Plymouth ahead of the London Paddington service and terminated there, which resulted in a lot of people waiting to board this train.

"The train manager said the situation was unsafe and asked people standing right by the doors to leave."

He said police assisted staff as some passengers did not want to leave.

GWR said a further six carriages were added to a two carriage train that departed about one hour later and took passengers into Cornwall.

Pictures in the link above.

[ChrisB]

Near the beginning of this thread, someone speaks of obtaining an advance ticket for ^19, such tickets should not in my view be sold for services expected to be busy.

I totally agree, and it would appear poor commercially to do so. However, I suspect that TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company)'s may be afraid of the bad publicity they may get if they don't offer them on busy services, as they will then be accused of "ripping people off", and no matter how logical the argument, they will lose it in the eyes of the media and public (a bit like when they withdrew GroupSave for Reading's day out at Wembley).

I suspect there would be some members of this community who would make that accusation. 

Yes, some regular posters are awfully quiet.....

[IndustryInsider]

There's part of the problem in trying to manage overcrowding on a train that's already loaded.  Ask/tell some people to leave and they refuse.  Police have to be called.  The minutes quickly pass by, tempers flare, and you end up with arguably a worse situation than you would have with everyone crammed in and the train on the move!

[broadgage]

Out of interest, taking London - Plymouth as an example, given a similar service pattern, how many seats will be added by the new trains?

Impossible to be very precise, given we don't know the frequency of trains and times they will run.

However, as a guide, the latest seating layout in HST^▸ (High Speed Train)'s has an average (depending on whether it's a full size or mini-buffet) of 490 Standard and 70 First Class seats (560 total), the SET^▸ (Super Express Train (now IET)) trains were specified for 526 Standard and 101 First Class (627 total) for the 9-Car Electric version and a 5-Car Bi-Mode unit (running as a pair) would have 540 Standard and 90 First Class (total 630).  An extra carriage on the 9-car sets could up that total to well over 700, but even then you'd find it hard to eliminate standees on days like Maundy Thursday!

You'd assume that the AT300 follow on order for 'West of England' services would have similar capacities to the SET units currently being built, though if rumours of provision of a buffet car on those sets are realised, then that would knock out about 15-20 seats at a guess.  However the Wikipedia article on these Class 802s states a total capacity of 655 seats on a 9-car unit.

Clear as mud at the moment!

That information may be out of date ? I thought that first class provision had been down graded to about 36 on the half length units and to about 71 on the few full length units.
That would of course give an increase in total seating capacity, though the increase appears modest for all the expense and disruption incurred.
The above also presumes that all services will be either 9 car, or two 5 car coupled together. If the voyager experience is anything to go by, this might be an optimistic assumption.

[ellendune]

There's part of the problem in trying to manage overcrowding on a train that's already loaded.  Ask/tell some people to leave and they refuse.  Police have to be called.  The minutes quickly pass by, tempers flare, and you end up with arguably a worse situation than you would have with everyone crammed in and the train on the move!

A few years ago, following disruption, I was on an HST^▸ (High Speed Train) at Paddington that was so overcrowded they announcer said it was unsafe to proceed.  They asked anyone fro Reading to get off and take another service that was waiting on another platform. I did not see anyone move. After a long while I saw the other service leave.

So those who had taken it would have got to Reading earlier.  

In some circumstances I think it would be preferable just to say "This service will no longer stop at Reading"

[ChrisB]

And those waiting for it at Reading do what?

[ellendune]

And those waiting for it at Reading do what?

As I said it was a time of disruption (the line outside Paddington had been closed for a time).  I suspect they had been turning some services around at Reading anyway so the demand there would not have been as great. There were several trains leaving in close succession, so it would not have been a long wait.  It would have been a method of getting the service going again.

[IndustryInsider]

Out of interest, taking London - Plymouth as an example, given a similar service pattern, how many seats will be added by the new trains?

Impossible to be very precise, given we don't know the frequency of trains and times they will run.

However, as a guide, the latest seating layout in HST^▸ (High Speed Train)'s has an average (depending on whether it's a full size or mini-buffet) of 490 Standard and 70 First Class seats (560 total), the SET^▸ (Super Express Train (now IET)) trains were specified for 526 Standard and 101 First Class (627 total) for the 9-Car Electric version and a 5-Car Bi-Mode unit (running as a pair) would have 540 Standard and 90 First Class (total 630).  An extra carriage on the 9-car sets could up that total to well over 700, but even then you'd find it hard to eliminate standees on days like Maundy Thursday!

You'd assume that the AT300 follow on order for 'West of England' services would have similar capacities to the SET units currently being built, though if rumours of provision of a buffet car on those sets are realised, then that would knock out about 15-20 seats at a guess.  However the Wikipedia article on these Class 802s states a total capacity of 655 seats on a 9-car unit.

Clear as mud at the moment!

That information may be out of date ? I thought that first class provision had been down graded to about 36 on the half length units and to about 71 on the few full length units.
That would of course give an increase in total seating capacity, though the increase appears modest for all the expense and disruption incurred.
The above also presumes that all services will be either 9 car, or two 5 car coupled together. If the voyager experience is anything to go by, this might be an optimistic assumption.

Yes indeed, hence me saying it was difficult to be precise and that what I said was only a guide.  There has been statements from GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) to the effect of 'no 5-car trains in the peaks' so in the case of Maundy Thursday evening services I would hope everything would be 9/10 carriages heading out of Paddington.  Time will tell.

I'd certainly welcome the first class seating reduced to around 70 seats per trains as it is now, to provide the extra standard class seats most people want, and which has now proven to work better on the vast majority of services, despite the usual predictions of doom on here.  I can imagine how the 19:03 would have been on Thursday with the old 5 standard class, 2.5 first class carriage ratio.

[didcotdean]

Although the first class provision was also insufficient on Thursday. Can remember on twitter someone who with a partner had paid together in excess of ^300 for standing space for much of their journey.

[a-driver]

The industry needs to make passengers aware that:
1.  If you're travelling without a seat reservation then it is likely you will be standing.
2.  Make it more visible in timetables which services where reservations are recommended and/or which services are historical likely to be full and standing.

[didcotdean]

The 19:03 is marked as 'reservations recommended' in the online and paper timetables weekdays - maybe it should say reservations essential for Fridays. Whether anyone would take much notice is another matter.

To Bristol / South Wales every weekday train between 16:15 and 19:30 is now listed as reservation recommended.

[Chris from Nailsea]

By way of an interesting comparison - from the BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page):

Plymouth Argyle v Morecambe: Review after fans miss game

Football fans missed an away game after being stuck in traffic "chaos" as they attempted to travel more than 330 miles.

The Good Friday fixture between Morecambe and Plymouth was delayed by 30 minutes after fans were stuck on the M6.

Plymouth Argyle Football Club said it made "no sense" to schedule the match "for one of the busiest weekends".

It "intends to carry out a thorough review".

Argyle manager Derek Adams said: "We all know that the roads are going to be busy and I think we could all have played closer to home over this period."

A number of vehicles were involved in a crash on the M6 at about 12:45 GMT on Good Friday, with three lanes closed for several hours between junctions 10a and 11.

Plymouth fan James Hardy, who left at 06:30 and arrived at Morecambe at 17:30, said: "The coach drivers tried to follow diversions, but there was just more and more traffic.


Fans from Plymouth were stuck in traffic on the M6 following a crash involving several vehicles

"We arrived just as the game was about to finish, then it was six-and-a-half hours back home. We were gutted to never make it."

He added it "would be nice" to be refunded for the match as a "goodwill gesture".

Sally Kimmince told BBC News: "It was a nightmare. You can't blame the driver, it's all down to the Football League."

In a statement, the club said: "We deeply regret that the majority of the Green Army were caught up in the traffic chaos on the M6 on Good Friday which severely affected their journey to watch our game at Morecambe. Even though, at the request of Argyle officials, the game's kick-off was delayed by half an hour, some fans that set off from Plymouth at the crack of dawn were turned back without reaching the Globe Arena after hours on the road. That is heartbreaking."

Argyle said it was "entirely predictable that such chaos would ensue" and "we believe it made no sense to schedule a fixture which involves a 660-mile round-trip for Plymouth-based Argyle supporters for one of the busiest weekends of the year".

"We will also be making representation to the Football League to try to ensure that our loyal supporters will be spared such an ordeal in the future."

The Football League is yet to comment.

Plymouth Argyle picked up their first win in five games, winning 2-0 at Morecambe.

[JayMac]

Overcrowding issues on services to the west continued into Good Friday. This time with police involvement at Plymouth.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-35903343
http://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/Train-passengers-8216-forced-stand-hours-8217/story-28997853-detail/story.html

So, here we have the operator confirming that overcrowding can be unsafe.

[Adelante_CCT]

Pedant mode on:

Plymouth Argyle v Morecambe: Review after fans miss game

Should be Morecambe v Plymouth Argyle:

Pedant mode off:
 

[John R]

Overcrowding issues on services to the west continued into Good Friday. This time with police involvement at Plymouth.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-35903343
http://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/Train-passengers-8216-forced-stand-hours-8217/story-28997853-detail/story.html

So, here we have the operator confirming that overcrowding can be unsafe.

Already posted by ChrisB a dozen posts up?