National Railcard discounts - ongoing discussion, no longer date specific

[whole diary]

[bobm]

It has been 09:30 since the Two Together card was launched in March 2014.

[teamsaint]

 
Thanks.
Just thought I heard a member of staff say it was now 9.30.

Wonder why it is a  different time, in any case.

[didcotdean]

Might be a lot more streamlined if the limits placed on some railcard usage by time such as Two Together, Network etc were instead tied to off-peak tickets.

Not without its downside for people using anytime tickets from the likes of some London terminals etc in the evening peak, but eliminates the strange 'shoulder' in the morning where off-peak tickets are available but no railcard discount. Especially since the shoulder isn't the same size for each railcard.

Still probably just one of the many illogicalities that are too difficult to straighten out.

[ChrisB]

Meant to be after first off-peak service. If you want that, the demand is such that discount is not needed to fill seats. Hence the 10am departure time, rather than it linked to destination arrival time

[didcotdean]

Yes - as I said it creates a shoulder price. If there aren't enough graduations in price already

[stuving]

The 16-25 Railcard has a 10:00 general start time.
The Two Together Railcard has a 9:30 general start time.
Family & Friends, and Senior, Railcards are invalid during off-peak times in the home counties.
The Disabled Railcard has no time limits.
Plus each has a list of exceptions, varying in length.

Is that not simple enough?

[Brucey]

The 16-25 Railcard has a 10:00 general start time.
The Two Together Railcard has a 9:30 general start time.
Family & Friends, and Senior, Railcards are invalid during off-peak times in the home counties.
The Disabled Railcard has no time limits.
Plus each has a list of exceptions, varying in length.

Is that not simple enough?

But it gets even more complicated.

The 16-25 is valid before 10:00 on tickets with a discounted price of ^12.00 or more.  Customers can opt to pay a minimum fare of ^12.00 if this works out cheaper than the undiscounted ticket.  Plus it's valid on Advance tickets regardless of the time or price.  Not valid in 1st class, except for Advance tickets.

[stuving]

The 16-25 is valid before 10:00 on tickets with a discounted price of ^12.00 or more.  Customers can opt to pay a minimum fare of ^12.00 if this works out cheaper than the undiscounted ticket.  Plus it's valid on Advance tickets regardless of the time or price.  Not valid in 1st class, except for Advance tickets.

That's not what the on-line words say. But either way, the exceptions are so wide that the 10:00 limit perhaps isn't really general after all. Unless the trains it applies to are the main ones you'd want to use it on. 

[ChrisB]

Family & Friends, and Senior, Railcards are invalid during off-peak times in the home counties.

Huh? invalid during *peak* times surely

[stuving]

Family & Friends, and Senior, Railcards are invalid during off-peak times in the home counties.

Huh? invalid during *peak* times surely

Of course. Glad to see someone's awake.

[paul7575]

Family & Friends, and Senior, Railcards are invalid during off-peak times in the home counties.

Where 'home counties' means the Network Card area, which is rather larger; and peak times means the time before the off-peak fares become available on the route in question, which will vary by origin and destination, and cannot be shown as a simple time...

Paul

[TonyK]

... unless you have a younger brother who is going out as the guest of an older boy ...

[teamsaint]

so, can anybody explain to me the logic , if there is any, as to where easements on railcards are allowed?

The 9.59 Grately to Waterloo seems ( to me) to be a sensible one to allow. The lack of an Easement just means that card holders will  just ( if possible) make the short journey  into Andover, and use their railcard. Fares are the same from Andover and Grateley to Waterloo.
Perhaps the TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) just want people to use Andover rather than Grateley, for some reason that escapes me.Or they think that folk will wait till the next Grateley train an hour later at 10.59?

[grahame]

so, can anybody explain to me the logic , if there is any, as to where easements on railcards are allowed?

In general, easements are allowed in circumstances that make it very much worthwhile the granter of the easement doing so.  Which means it brings them significant extra business  (commercial) / save them popularity / votes (political) by making the decision.   

Looking at commercial fare timing easements ...

The first thing the responsible TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) will look at is whether it will raise an objection from another TOC.  Slightly far fetched, but would an 09:59 start from Grateley to London tempt car drivers from the hinterland away from the 10:19 Pewsey to London, so would Great Western Railway (GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway)) object?   

Second thing - would the easement lead to a significant loss of revenue using the existing service at a higher price and dropping to the lower cost ticket if the easement was introduced? 

Thirdly, would it make longer distance fares with the easement undercut higher short distance fares?   For example, easements on the 08:49 Swindon to Westbury for fares beyond Chippenham cannot be offered due (I understand) to potential irregularities introduced to the local Swindon to Chippenham traffic.

Fourthly - there has to be a border time somewhere, and in order for a fare time easement to be granted, the grantor and consultees will need to be convinced that it's worthwhile moving the line.   So you're more likely to find grants being made on infrequent services (such as the train that runs through from Swindon to Exeter and beyond before the normal start of rover time) rather than on a service that runs every hour and just happens to fall the wrong side of the lip at Grateley - "has to happen somewhere / train stops every few minutes" ...

Not all easements are conventional (i.e. just a few minutes stretch) ... I note some very early rover ones from Exeter to Barnstaple which are a way of making the rovers more useful / selling more while boosting traffic on a train that would otherwise be pretty darned quiet; it's really runs 'out' to form an incoming train and if it can get a bit of revenue, why not?

Political decisions on easements are interesting - I'm thinking of local councils on ENCTS^▸ (English National Concessionary Travel Scheme) cards for the buses.  We see those decisions based on a multi-hour gap to the next service, making the 09:20 a great way into "Town" but the 11:50 being too late for pensioners who need to do their shopping and get home for lunch.   And with politics so much is about the timing of when you ask for the easement in the election cycle.  I suspect there are considerations within the franchise cycle to be looked at too ...


Edit: VickiS - Clarifying abbreviation

[Richard Fairhurst]

But it gets even more complicated. The 16-25 is valid before 10:00 on tickets with a discounted price of ^12.00 or more.

Except there's no minimum fare at weekends, on bank holidays, or in July or August, or on a full moon (probably).

One of the best innovations ever tried on the privatised railway was in the early days of Central Trains, when rather than faffing with railcards, advances, super off-peaks, half savers, groupsaves, great escapes (contd. p74) they just Made The ----ing Fares Cheaper.