Ticket Machines "overcharging" ... or rather not selling the lowest cost option

[whole diary]

[paul7575]

(For Paddington, Super Off-Peak Return isn't one of the default options on the TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine), so unless you know that this fare exists and to page through the screens to find it, you'll go for the default, significantly more expensive Off-Peak ticket. For Oxford, the cheapest ticket in the evening is an Oxford Evening Out, which the machine won't sell you at all: you have to know it exists and to buy it from the guard, in contravention of the stern posters telling you to buy before you board. You and I know better, but most travellers won't.)

SWT^▸ (South West Trains) use the same S&B machines and DO manage to bring Super Offpeaks onto the front page display at the time they become available, so it doesn't appear to be a technology issue, just a case of someone getting the details loaded up.

There were a few initial teething troubles when they weren't quite appearing soon enough to board the first applicable train, but it's a long time since I've seen that issue at a TVM.

Paul

[TaplowGreen]

If you're willing to pay for this enormous upgrade through fares, I agree.

Otherwise it needs pricing into franchises. You're talking ^millions

Sorry, not good enough. Charging consistent fares across all methods is not something that can be waved away by saying it'd cost too much, and I challenge the over the top assertion that it represents an "enormous upgrade". You can be damn sure they'd be all over it quickly enough if TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) were under charging.

[grahame]

If you're willing to pay for this enormous upgrade ...

.... You're talking ^millions

The cost of putting a browser onto a TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) would be eyewatering  

I suspect that the problem might be the time taken / number of screens people have to go through to select and purchase tickets on their personal devices ... the most common tickets on a TVM will take just a very few clicks and transactions take (guessing) a minute or so.   Though  menu system offering any UK^▸ (United Kingdom) ticket, you're probably looking at 4 or 5 minutes

You may be right in talking "huge upgrade cost", ChrisB, but that's in extra machines ... and by taking away the short menus, you'll please newspapers like the Mirror and irritate the heck out of regulars who buy the same ticket with the same few keystrokes every week ...

How about clearer labelling ...

"This machine sells only a limited range of tickets for immediate travel from this station to be purchased on a debit or credit card.
If you're looking for tickets in advance, tickets starting from other stations, groupsave, other bargain specials, rangers, rovers or other products you can purchase them online and collect them here five minutes later.   In spite of having a thumping great slot marked "BANK NOTES" and one for "COINS", this machine does not accept cash"

[ellendune]

SWT^▸ (South West Trains) use the same S&B machines and DO manage to bring Super Offpeaks onto the front page display at the time they become available, so it doesn't appear to be a technology issue, just a case of someone getting the details loaded up.

A solution must be found. 

I have bought tickets from similar looking machines at Koln hbf, Rotterdam Centraal, Deft Centraal and even Deflft Zuid.  All of which sold me the correct fare and I think told me the train times (I am certain in Koln and I think so in Rotterdam and Delft).

If they want us to use the machines they have to sort it.  Or are they hoping that smart card or contactless will overcome the problem.

[chrisr_75]

SWT^▸ (South West Trains) use the same S&B machines and DO manage to bring Super Offpeaks onto the front page display at the time they become available, so it doesn't appear to be a technology issue, just a case of someone getting the details loaded up.

A solution must be found. 

I have bought tickets from similar looking machines at Koln hbf, Rotterdam Centraal, Deft Centraal and even Deflft Zuid.  All of which sold me the correct fare and I think told me the train times (I am certain in Koln and I think so in Rotterdam and Delft).

If they want us to use the machines they have to sort it.  Or are they hoping that smart card or contactless will overcome the problem.

Good idea though they are, but I'm not sure smart cards or contactless will work under the current system, unless there is a wholesale overhaul of the fare system as the trust will not be there from the travelling public that the cheapest fare is charged as per the TfL^» (Transport for London - about) Oyster^▸ (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services) card (which had a pretty simple fare system prior to Oyster). The complexity of the fare system and worry about being 'fined' already puts people off.

[ChrisB]

And returns aren't available on Oyster^▸ (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services)

[chrisr_75]

And returns aren't available on Oyster^▸ (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services)

They wouldn't necessarily need to be available for any properly implemented smart card system or even a 'paper ticket' system with a common sense approach applied to the fare structure.

[Surrey 455]

I suspect that the problem might be the time taken / number of screens people have to go through to select and purchase tickets on their personal devices ... the most common tickets on a TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) will take just a very few clicks and transactions take (guessing) a minute or so.   Though  menu system offering any UK^▸ (United Kingdom) ticket, you're probably looking at 4 or 5 minutes

I would imagine that the train operator would ideally like you to buy your ticket with as few options as possible. No dithering about what type of ticket you want, move away quickly and don't delay the people behind you. Not that that is right of course.

[grahame]

As an experiment, I went through the actions to purchase a return ticket (out tomorrow, back a couple of days later) of typical GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) journey via their web site. 

From where; To where; Day and month of travel; Leave after or arrive before; Time of day; Are you returning; - open or; - Day and month of travel; - Leave after or arrive before; - Time of day; Adult number; Children number; Railcard type; Railcard number; Submit; ---------; Choice of outbound train; Choice of inbound train; Choice of fare option; Submit; --------; Yes please, I want to save!; (Seating preference); (Plusbus options); (Travel Cards for London); Submit ; ----------; Delivery ("Ready within 1 hour" I note); Collection Station; Submit; ----------; 14 requred  boxed for a new user personal details and card; Submit;

Around 40 boxes to complete  / click / pull down - actual number later on will vary depending on selections made earlier.   And there's also reading to do and some decisions made not to complete boxes.

By comparison, I would expect a TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) walkup for the same ticketed journey to be between 5 and 10 selections to make (may have a play later).

I am happy to report a pop-up box telling me I could do cheaper:



which was made possible because of the extra information I provided about my trip within the 30+ additional responses; in this case I had selected a higher cost trip to give me additional flexibility to return in the peak, but indicated a likely train in the middle of the day.

My Conclusions? 

* Different products - no way a TVM with the starting point requirement to sell common tickets quickly at present mirrors a browser based product with all the options.

* Extra buttons on the front TVM screen COULD take you through "help me" mode which is the browser equivalent, and perhaps "expert mode" which would allow direct fare database access and entry - find your ticket(s) as on BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) Fares and enter the start date for each.

* Avantix^▸ (Ticket Issuing System used on board trains) and Ticket Office systems differ again ... on none of the systems can I purchase my own excess; I have to get an expert to help me, even if I know better that (s)he does what I want!

[ChrisB]

You may be right in talking "huge upgrade cost", ChrisB, but that's in extra machines ... and by taking away the short menus, you'll please newspapers like the Mirror and irritate the heck out of regulars who buy the same ticket with the same few keystrokes every week ...

Yes, I'm talking ^millions. There's no current connection to the reservation/Advance fares databases for a start. Every TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) will need one. That almost certainly requires an upgrade to those databases to generate these connections. Plus all the necessary programming and possibly machine upgrades with more powerful chips.

How about clearer labelling ...

Can't disagree there - a possibly removal of that first screen of 'popular' fares. This needs to carry the cheapest available-at-the-time fare along with all other fares chosen for display. But frankly, I'd be happy to see it removed, simply displaying all fares to the station selected. Put the choice firmly on the traveller. Obviously only displaying available-at-the-time-of buying fares for immediate travel as fraud is unfortunately a problem.

"but the TVM sold ne this ticket" has to be avoided as an excuse.

[Bmblbzzz]

I suspect that the problem might be the time taken / number of screens people have to go through to select and purchase tickets on their personal devices ... the most common tickets on a TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) will take just a very few clicks and transactions take (guessing) a minute or so.   Though  menu system offering any UK^▸ (United Kingdom) ticket, you're probably looking at 4 or 5 minutes

I would imagine that the train operator would ideally like you to buy your ticket with as few options as possible. No dithering about what type of ticket you want, move away quickly and don't delay the people behind you. Not that that is right of course.

Then why do they offer so many ticket types?

I know the plethora of fare options is not just down to the TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) but surely they must have some say with the ORR^» (Office of Rail and Road formerly Office of Rail Regulation - about) (or whoever it is that sets them; another confusion.)

[ChrisB]

It is down to the TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company), generally.

[stuving]

I know the plethora of fare options is not just down to the TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) but surely they must have some say with the ORR^» (Office of Rail and Road formerly Office of Rail Regulation - about) (or whoever it is that sets them; another confusion.)

I think it is mainly down to the TOCs collectively, i.e. ATOC^» (Association of Train Operating Companies See - here). There has to be a cross-operator ticketing system, which they worked out based on what was there before. Simplifying it would mean upsetting those who use whatever ticket disappears, or goes up in price in a levelling process, and no-one dares do that. DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) I guess have enshrined the current arrangement in franchises, but I don't see why they would insist it be kept.

ORR's remit only covers protecting users, viz.:

• To promote improvements in railway service performance;
  
• Otherwise to protect the interests of users of railway services;
  
• To promote the use of the railway network in Great Britain for the carriage of passengers and goods, and the development of that railway network, to the greatest extent that it considers economically practicable;
  
• To contribute to the development of an integrated system of transport of passengers and goods;
  
• To contribute to the achievement of sustainable development;
  
• To promote efficiency and economy on the part of persons providing railway services;
  
• To promote competition in the provision of railway services for the benefit of users of railway services;
  
• To promote measures designed to facilitate the making by passengers of journeys which involve use of the services of more than one passenger service operator;
  

[and so on, less relevantly.]

[ChrisB]

I think the Minister would have something to say if ATOC^» (Association of Train Operating Companies See - here) invented another type of fare with consultation/approval from same. There would have to be very favourable reason to the Pax for the go ahead, especially after the (part-) simplification of a few years back.

But I don't think there's anything in a franchise preventing them; similarly, they could simplify further providing there were benefits to the passenger, without too much fuss, I reckon.

[stuving]

I think franchises say TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) have to use the RSP, but not what that has to include.

Given how widely it is thought that the current system is too complex - even ministers have said it - any extra complication would probably fall foul of one or other item on the ORR^» (Office of Rail and Road formerly Office of Rail Regulation - about)'s things to do list. But simplifying wouldn't, per se. Of course someone might think that a particular ticket type was needed in the interests of fairness, in some sense, so couldn't be abandoned.