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Author Topic: Finland and Estonia ponder undersea railway tunnel  (Read 5778 times)
grahame
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« on: January 05, 2016, 22:01:51 »

From Reuters

A bit out of area ... but then we learn from seeing what others do around the world.  I understand that ideas are being sought as to how to take the Island Line forward, and perhaps ...

Quote
Finland and Estonia on Tuesday agreed to explore the possibility of constructing an undersea railway tunnel between their capitals.

Tens of thousands of Estonians work in the Helsinki region, many of whom commute over the Baltic Sea weekly, and many Finnish tourists visit Tallinn.

"Helsinki and Tallinn together form an economic area of approximately 1.5 million people. To fully utilize the area's potential, transport between the cities should be faster and flow easier than at present," the city of Helsinki said in a statement.

It added that a tunnel would shorten the travel time between the cities to about 30 minutes, from at least 90 minutes currently by fast ferry. The tunnel would be 65-92 km (40-60 miles) long.
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John R
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« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2016, 22:40:16 »

... and perhaps the Penarth - Weston tunnel, which will improve connectivity no end between North Somerset and (the former) South Glamorgan. Grin
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Bmblbzzz
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« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2016, 23:33:05 »

It's quite likely that Estonia sees this as more than just a transport link. There are a large number of Russians living in Estonia ^ off the top of my head it could be a third of the population ^ who, due to decisions taken when Estonia became independent, were never given Estonian citizenship. So they not only speak Russian and think of themselves as Russian but have Russian citizenship. Estonia fears that Putin (or perhaps whoever succeeds him one day) could use this as a lever to interfere in the country's government or even annex part of it, in a similar way to Crimea. Estonia is culturally close to Finland and since the early 90s has viewed Finland as a sort of protector, so this tunnel not only emphasises that link but could give Finland a legitimate excuse to support Estonia militarily in the event it was needed.

Unless France has unsuspected ambitions, the Isle of Wight is not in a similar position!
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grahame
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« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2025, 19:43:58 »

It's quite likely that Estonia sees this as more than just a transport link. There are a large number of Russians living in Estonia ^ off the top of my head it could be a third of the population ^ who, due to decisions taken when Estonia became independent, were never given Estonian citizenship. So they not only speak Russian and think of themselves as Russian but have Russian citizenship. Estonia fears that Putin (or perhaps whoever succeeds him one day) could use this as a lever to interfere in the country's government or even annex part of it, in a similar way to Crimea. Estonia is culturally close to Finland and since the early 90s has viewed Finland as a sort of protector, so this tunnel not only emphasises that link but could give Finland a legitimate excuse to support Estonia militarily in the event it was needed.

Unless France has unsuspected ambitions, the Isle of Wight is not in a similar position!


From the Daily echo

Quote
Can we get a rail tunnel under the Solent to Isle of Wight?

With Hovertravel facing financial challenges and climate change making our weather increasingly wet and windy, it is becoming difficult to always rely on ferries and hovercraft to provide a reliable service.

If a rail tunnel was constructed under the Solent the cost would eventually be justified.

As well as passengers, the railway line could carry freight, taking it off our crumbling roads.

Our current ferries, especially on the Cowes route, are nearing the end of their efficient lifespan.

Until recently, I would not have thought of France wanting to take over the Isle of Wight ... but with the USA with designs on Greenland, perhaps it would be a good defensive idea to tunnel to the IoW? 
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« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2025, 22:06:21 »

Given the number of recent "accidents" involving anchors and cables, it's perhaps a good idea to build tunnels for the more sensitive, ideally with a railway line running alongside. 
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broadgage
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« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2025, 22:38:04 »

I have limited faith in long underwater rail tunnels. Mainly due to the risks of fire.
I feel that more use could be made of bridges instead. These days it should be possible to build long bridges high enough that any likely ship can pass under it.

Tunnels consume electricity continually for ventilation, cooling and removing water, a bridge does not.



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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
ellendune
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« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2025, 11:48:59 »

A bridge is much more vulnerable to being hit by a ship, whether accidentally or otherwise.  (Think what happened to the Severn Railway Bridge or more recently the Francis Scott Key bridge in Baltimore).  They also are vulnerable to closure during storms. 


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eightonedee
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« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2025, 19:08:31 »

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I have limited faith in long underwater rail tunnels. Mainly due to the risks of fire.
I feel that more use could be made of bridges instead. These days it should be possible to build long bridges high enough that any likely ship can pass under it.

Sadly, the biggest threat is probably Vladimir Putin. I guess he'd really like an excuse for revenge for the attack on the Kerch bridge.
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broadgage
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« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2025, 15:53:50 »

It is easy to make bridge piers or supports immune to damage from ships, simply build an island around the support in order that any out of control ship may run aground without damage to the bridge.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
Noggin
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« Reply #9 on: Today at 10:28:33 »

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I have limited faith in long underwater rail tunnels. Mainly due to the risks of fire.
I feel that more use could be made of bridges instead. These days it should be possible to build long bridges high enough that any likely ship can pass under it.

Sadly, the biggest threat is probably Vladimir Putin. I guess he'd really like an excuse for revenge for the attack on the Kerch bridge.

He'll be long dead by the time it's opened.

Let's not forget that when the Channel Tunnel was under construction there was a real threat of the IRA blowing it up (and before that, there were nineteenth century fears that a Channel Tunnel would be used for invasion). Despite the incidents involving pipelines and cables in the Baltic, no-one seems to have had an "accident" in the vicinity of the Øresund Straight or the Kiel Canal.

There seems to be a growing appetite for connecting Finland and the Baltic States to the rest of Europe including a rail route across the Baltic Sea between Finland and Sweden https://www.euronews.com/next/2025/03/08/will-a-bridge-across-the-baltic-sea-to-sweden-give-finland-faster-connections-to-europe

Also, the Finns just completed electrification and upgrade of the cross-border line between Laurila in Lapland and Haparanda in Sweden. It seems like it's primarily for freight (which will still have to be transhipped at this point), but it apparently it's cost effective to haul freight by rail an extra 1700km rather than ship it across the Baltic. 
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