First day back ...

[whole diary]

[grahame]

... and noting the BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) comparing UK^▸ (United Kingdom) and German ticket prices (commuter seasons) this morning ...

[NickB]

I asked my Irish cousins to guess the price of my season ticket renewal. They were out by factors of 10 and 12.

[TaplowGreen]

... and noting the BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) comparing UK^▸ (United Kingdom) and German ticket prices (commuter seasons) this morning ...

.........it was the subject of much discussion at Taplow station this morning as tickets were being renewed! 

[grahame]

I asked my Irish cousins to guess the price of my season ticket renewal. They were out by factors of 10 and 12.

Bray to Dublin - 22 km / annual ticket (for Dublin area) 2140 euro = 1583 pounds
Bath to Bristol - similar distance - annual ticket 1552 pounds

I appreciate this isn't really a like for like comparison, as you have two very different ticket / fare / transport structures.  But are your Irish cousins season ticket holders, NickB?   I suspect that non-commuters throughout the British Isles aren't aware of the true cost of commuting by public transport.

[LiskeardRich]

I drive to work a round trip of 36km, and I calculated my petrol bill alone just for work to be approx. ^1200 a year (based on 5 days a week, working 47 weeks a year).
I only use that car for commuting, so 100% of servicing costs, MOT, Tax and insurance added to this would work out more expensive than the longer Bristol Bath journey quoted above for a shorter journey.

I therefore don't believe the annual train tickets when looked at in that way are that bad.

Train season ticket prices for my commute would be:

7 Days ^15.10 
1 Month ^58.00 
3 Months ^174.00
6 Months ^348.00 
12 Months ^604.00

Unfortunately the train times don't work unless I'm prepared to wait 80 or so minutes by the time I reach the station for the next train when I finish.


notes- my car for commuting is our old family car a "gas guzzler" achieving 23-25 mpg, should I drive a more economical car my fuel price would drop by probably half but I wouldn't really save anything time I spend extra money buying an eco car.

[ChrisB]

Bray to Dublin - 22 km / annual ticket (for Dublin area) 2140 euro = 1583 pounds
Bath to Bristol - similar distance - annual ticket 1552 pounds

I appreciate this isn't really a like for like comparison, as you have two very different ticket / fare / transport structures.  

It's probably closer than you think....similar service patterns and commuter numbers.

The problem with these comparisons are that generally, they just look at fares, rather than cost of providing the service overall. I suspect that the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) fares generally cover London, where no other EU^» (European Union - about) city provides such a intensive ser ice, which obviously costs more to provide.

[didcotdean]

This all initiated from a TUC and rail unions report and press release. They only seem concerned with price rises since 2010, although the BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) presentation of prices rises went back to 2005, which seems fair to me as that is when the escalation (or transfer from tax payer to user if you like) started.

It is more or less an updated copy of the same thing they sent out last year, even down to a protest at Kings Cross.

The TUC representative interviewed by the BBC seemed to think that all rail services in Germany were supplied by the same operator. Surprised he didn't seem to know about the franchising of the regional / commuter services by L^nder.

[grahame]

Bray to Dublin - 22 km / annual ticket (for Dublin area) 2140 euro = 1583 pounds
Bath to Bristol - similar distance - annual ticket 1552 pounds

I appreciate this isn't really a like for like comparison, as you have two very different ticket / fare / transport structures.  

It's probably closer than you think....similar service patterns and commuter numbers.

Thanks for that - I was aiming to avoid two really diverse routes 

... provides such a intensive ser ice, which obviously costs more to provide ...

I completely understand that it costs more to provide a more intense service.   What I don't understand (though you tell me it's obvious, I think) why it costs more per journey made ... if the trains were as heavily loaded (and, goodness, the TV pictures of the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) show heavily loaded trains) then why should doubling the service cost more than twice as much?

Where infrastructure is available to support extra services - looking east of Bristol to Chippenham and perhaps Swindon, and to Salisbury and to Frome ... is going up from 4 trains an hour from Bristol to 5 under Metro West really going to add 25% to maintenance and signalling running costs?   And South from Bathampton does a step up from 2 to 3 an hour really add 50% to maintenance and signalling?   And if those trains are extended from 3 to 5 carriages, is that going to add (a further) 66% on costs like signalling, maintenance, and staff wages?

For sure, these changes / improvements may tip the balance into there being a need to relay the track alongside the 4th platform at Westbury, to allow trains to use platform 1 at Salisbury, and perhaps to put in "double junction"s at Bradford and Thingley to allow trains waiting for the single line a refuge, but that's hardly big money whey you look at costs such as GW^▸ (Great Western) electrification.

[grahame]

1560.00 per annum sounds like a lot more that 3.50 per journey 

[Adelante_CCT]

1560.00 per annum sounds like a lot more that 3.50 per journey 

Completely agree, ^1552 for a season from Bath to Bristol may sound a lot, but put that into just ^3.23 per journey (based on National Rails estimates of 480 commuter journeys) and that does sound a lot better. Throw into that a few weekend/leisure trips between the destinations and you get even more for your large outlay.

[Richard Fairhurst]

That ^3.23 is, of course, well under half the fare of the cheapest Bristol-Bath CDR^▸ (Off Peak Day Return [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day')) (^7.40). So it costs less to travel when the trains are fullest, and more to travel off-peak when there's spare capacity.

Our railways have never really grasped the whole supply/demand thing, have they?

[TaplowGreen]

That ^3.23 is, of course, well under half the fare of the cheapest Bristol-Bath CDR^▸ (Off Peak Day Return [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day')) (^7.40). So it costs less to travel when the trains are fullest, and more to travel off-peak when there's spare capacity.

Our railways have never really grasped the whole supply/demand thing, have they?

I think you'll find that most organisations give a pretty hefty discount to those customers who are willing buy a year's supply of their product in advance!

What would be your suggestion as an equivalent daily price?

[NickB]

Bray to Dublin - 22 km / annual ticket (for Dublin area) 2140 euro = 1583 pounds
Bath to Bristol - similar distance - annual ticket 1552 pounds

I appreciate this isn't really a like for like comparison, as you have two very different ticket / fare / transport structures.  But are your Irish cousins season ticket holders, NickB?   I suspect that non-commuters throughout the British Isles aren't aware of the true cost of commuting by public transport.

That's an interesting comparison but I travel to London which, as capital city, is a better comparison to Dublin.  I travel 30miles as the crow flies from Maidenhead to Oxford Circus which is the same as Wicklow to Dublin. The Wicklow ticket costs Eur2280 or ^1550 per annum whereas Maidenhead plus tube equals ^3600. With a 'first class eastbound' ticket to get a seat (mostly) that becomes ^4400 and with station parking that becomes ^5500.
I've only lived here for 5 years but my season ticket has risen by over ^1000 in that time.

[Adelante_CCT]

That ^3.23 is, of course, well under half the fare of the cheapest Bristol-Bath CDR^▸ (Off Peak Day Return [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day')) (^7.40). So it costs less to travel when the trains are fullest, and more to travel off-peak when there's spare capacity.

Our railways have never really grasped the whole supply/demand thing, have they?

Not disagreeing with you but the ^3.23 is per journey, that's ^6.46 per day, not a lot different from ^7.40

[Richard Fairhurst]

Ah yes, good point!

@TG: I wouldn't argue that the season ticket price is too low. I'd argue that walk-up fares across the network are often too high and serve to suppress demand for underused services, and that advance fares are a spotty and often ill-advised solution to this. But that's a debate for another thread...