Guildford to Hilsea

[whole diary]

[Fourbee]

I have been looking at a journey from Guildford to Hilsea and am confused that the journey planner throws up routes doubling back from Fratton. It makes sense from a practical point of view because changing from a fast Southbound service to a Northbound service at Fratton can offer better connections; I cannot find anything in the routing guide that allows this though?

[Tim]

The routing guide is a mess.  I would have thought that if it is in the Journey planner used on the site where you purchase your ticket it would be very difficult to argue that the ticket wasn't valid or that you were to blame.  (keep a print out) 

[JayMac]

In this case the Journey Planner is applying the Routeing Guide rules correctly.

The particular rule in play is the 'Group Stations' rule.

GROUP STATIONS

Some stations are grouped together to improve interchange between trains by offering customers access to a wider choice of train services and station facilities. A customer may travel via any station in such a group, including doubling back, provided that the group is on one of the permitted routes between their origin and destination stations. This extended availability is for interchange purposes only and does not apply where the origin or destination stations are part of a group.

Hilsea and Fratton are both in the Portsmouth Group for routeing purposes.

http://iblocks-rg-publication.s3-website-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/group_stations.pdf

[Fourbee]

I had considered that many of the stations in that area belong to the Portsmouth group, but thought that Hilsea is the destination and part of that group doubling back is not allowed?

[RichardB]

I think this is a situation where you need to think of the on the ground practicalities.  If you are coming down the Portsmouth Direct from Guildford, heading for Hilsea, you are only going potentially to be challenged between Havant and Fratton or Fratton and Hilsea.

Sadly I think routeing has got so unnecessarily complicated that staff steer well clear of any complexities.  The BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) rule of "Any reasonable route" still happily holds force - I would count Guildford to Hilsea via Fratton as that.

Don't worry about it!

[Worcester_Passenger]

Yes the routeing guide is very complicated, but it's also badly written.

My immediate reaction on reading Bignosemac's quote

The particular rule in play is the 'Group Stations' rule.

GROUP STATIONS

Some stations are grouped together to improve interchange between trains by offering customers access to a wider choice of train services and station facilities. A customer may travel via any station in such a group, including doubling back, provided that the group is on one of the permitted routes between their origin and destination stations. This extended availability is for interchange purposes only and does not apply where the origin or destination stations are part of a group.

was the same as Fourbee:

I had considered that many of the stations in that area belong to the Portsmouth group, but thought that Hilsea is the destination and part of that group doubling back is not allowed?

No amount of cleverly-specified maps and charts will help if the rules are expressed badly.

[Fourbee]

There shouldn't be a problem as it's shown in the National Rail Journey Planner. Just to back up what has been said in the past:

This guide shows the full range of permitted routes available for use with tickets on
the National Rail network. The content has been approved by the Department for
Transport. If you are planning a journey we would strongly advise you to make use of
the Journey Planner at www.nationalrail.co.uk. Any ticket indicated for use in
conjunction with a particular journey when using the Journey Planner will
automatically be valid for the route and service indicated.

Which forms part of the bolded part in the NRCOC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage):

13. The route you are entitled to take
(a)
You may travel between the stations shown on the ticket you hold in:
(i)
a train on which you are able to make your entire journey without changing
trains;
(ii)
trains which take the shortest route which can be used by scheduled
passenger services; or
(iii)
trains which take the routes shown in the National Routeing Guide.

I am interested how it has been implemented to allow it in the online systems. I potentially think this easement may be the reason:
700007
Customers travelling between Chichester and Cosham may double back between
Hilsea and Fratton. This easement applies in both directions.

[jdw.wor]

Same issue applies with Witley and Haslemere, further up the line. On line ticketing allows you to buy a ticket to London from Witley via Haslemere (other direction) and from London to Witley via Haslemere (although for a higher price) This apparent easement means that Witley can have a half hourly service to and from London rather than the generally hourly stopping service. I suspect the same parameters apply with Fratton and Hilsea

[Chris from Nailsea]

Rather like the 'rules' used in Mornington Crescent.