Missing connections to buy tickets

[whole diary]

[hertzsprung]

My partner often travels on the Marlow line and, if she doesn't have an opportunity to buy a ticket on the train to Maidenhead and the connection is tight, she has boarded a train to Reading and used the excess fares office to buy a ticket.  Ordinarily Reading staff have no problem selling a ticket with a railcard discount.  However, the other week, the person at the excess fares office said that a ticket must be purchased at Maidenhead before boarding a train to Reading, even if this would delay her journey by ~30 minutes or more.  He also refused to sell a ticket with a railcard discount.

Why do ticket staff not act consistently?  If these are the rules, why are they not often enforced?  Perhaps some staff feel that it makes no sense to punish passengers who have no intent to evade fares.  Having to allow an hour for a half hour journey just to buy a ticket at Maidenhead is, IMO^▸ (in my opinion), entirely unnecessary.

[ChrisB]

You have sussed the reason ion your second paragraph. I wouldn't wish that they enforced the rules as you suggest.

[JayMac]

You shouldn't have to delay your journey to buy a ticket, although some staff seem to think you must.

You don't mention which station your partner is travelling from. If its Marlow then no problem as there are no ticket buying facilities at all. Bourne End has a ticket office open in the morning and a TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) available. These must be used prior to boarding if open/in working order. Not to do so leaves one liable to prosecution for ticketless travel.

Cookham and Furze Platt have ticket offices open in the morning. Again, these must be used when available.

I say 'must' as it is a legal requirement to purchase a ticket prior to boarding, where facilities exist and are open/in working order. That's regardless of whether or not tickets are sold on board.

Of course, if the origin station is Marlow then you can buy your ticket at the earliest opportunity. Be that on board, at an interchange, or at destination. If the connection time at Maidenhead is insufficient to purchase a ticket then that wouldn't constitute an opportunity.

If the journey in question was from Marlow, or from Cookham or Furze Platt when the ticket office was closed, and the connection time at Maidenhead was insufficient, then your partner absolutely should have been allowed to purchase the full range of tickets, including Railcard discount, on arrival at Reading. If that's what the journey in question entailed then you should complain to GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) about being overcharged.

But remember, if an opportunity to purchase was passed then an undiscounted fare being charged is probably a better outcome than being reported for prosecution.

[ChrisB]

If the connection time at Maidenhead is insufficient to purchase a ticket then that wouldn't constitute an opportunity.

That is your opinion, and you should note it as such. Convention is by using IMHO^▸ (in my humble opinion).

It is a grey, untested legal area and not yet proven either way. You leave yourself open to action if you don't take opportunity at Maidenhead and yes, unfortunately miss your connection. It would be helpful if GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) would issue some guidance, but I don't think they have.

[JayMac]

If the connection time at Maidenhead is insufficient to purchase a ticket then that wouldn't constitute an opportunity.

That is your opinion, and you should note it as such. Convention is by using IMHO^▸ (in my humble opinion).

Noted. You'll see I was careful to use the words 'should' or 'shouldn't' in relation to this particular point. As opposed to the 'must' regarding buying before boarding where facilities exist at the origin station. Agreed I should have added that it's my opinion regarding purchasing at an interchange.

You are correct that there is no clear guidance on what is a reasonable opportunity at an interchange station. With this particular case many of the connections at Maidenhead through the day off the Matlow branch and onto Reading bound services are just 4 minutes. I think it unlikely that GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) would consider that an opportunity. But then my personal recent experience of GWR staff enforcing ticketing rules leaves me somewhat cynical and I can perfectly understand someone at Reading insisting the OPs^▸ (Original Poster / topic starter) partner must purchase at Maidenhead in that 4 minute window, or delay their journey.

The OP's partner's actual journey would help us advise further.

[hertzsprung]

Thanks for the replies.  Travel is from Furze Platt and we always purchase tickets from machines or ticket offices when they are available.  I guess we will have no option other than to risk missing connections or, when we can, buy tickets in advance (not possible from ticket machines I believe?)

It's sad that these rules exist, but I suppose they are deemed necessary for prevent/punishing fare evasion.  I agree that it's nice that some staff are prepared to sell [discounted] tickets at the end of a journey regardless of the rulebook, but I still think better guidelines and more consistency is needed.

[grahame]

An interesting discussion ...

It often feels that a queue takes longer to get through than it really does ... but I did note times when joining a queue on Saturday at a station not very far from home and it took 10 minutes from that point to getting to the counter.  Interesting with a minimum interchange time of 5 minutes at that station.  

Looking at the Marlow branch, do passengers from Marlow, buying tickets at the "first available opportunity" have to buy when they change trains (a.m. peaks) at Bourne End, where they have as little as three minutes?   How does that work?

Noting posts as I've been writing - the Marlow comment doesn't apply to this particular journey, but I still wonder!

[hertzsprung]

With respect to how long it takes to buy a ticket, it depends whether you can buy one from the gateline staff or whether you have to queue at the ticket windows.  But there are often several people coming off the Marlow train who haven't had a chance to buy a ticket and queue at the gateline to do so.

As an aside, it would be helpful if *all* train guards did their best to sell tickets on the train.  Most are very good at doing so, but some guards seem to prefer to stay in their cab.

[ChrisB]

You'll see I was careful to use the words 'should' or 'shouldn't' in relation to this particular point.

Hmm, not careful enough, IMHO^▸ (in my humble opinion).

If the connection time at Maidenhead is insufficient to purchase a ticket then that wouldn't constitute an opportunity.

My emphasis. That is a definite statement, not an indeffinite one.

I guess we will have no option other than to risk missing connections or, when we can, buy tickets in advance (not possible from ticket machines I believe?)

Correct. But you can book online in advance or on apps & collect from machines, if that works.

[Fourbee]

If the OP^▸ (Original Poster / topic starter) decided to take this to the small claims court for the difference between the full fare and the railcard discounted one, I would bet it would be settled before it even got there (that's IMO^▸ (in my opinion) for the sake of clarity).

Again, IMO, these grey areas suit the TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) very nicely and they would not want to elaborate on the situation in court.

[JayMac]

I think if the journey under discussion was from Furze Platt, the ticket office was closed, and the interchange was less than 5 minutes, then I'd strongly recommended complaining to GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) that only an undiscounted ticket was sold on arrival at Reading.

And ChrisB, I pointed out that you were correct that I should have couched my initial reply as opinion, on the point about purchasing at an interchange, when I responded to you calling me out on it. No need to pull out another part of the same post to repeat that calling out.

[ChrisB]

No need to pull out another part of the same post to repeat that calling out.

I generally wouldn't have done. It was only because you qualified your acknowledgement - and I wanted to explain that wasn't only what I was calling you on.

[grahame]

And we see how pedantically difficult this whole area is to specify.  IMHO^▸ (in my humble opinion), people arriving at stations at the start of their journey and allowing the minimum connections time there (or 5 minutes, whichever is least) should be allowed to travel without fear of penalty if the ticket selling system can't provide a ticket in that timeframe. Similarly, at interchange stations, if it's not possible to buy the ticket within the minimum connection time, onward travel should be allowed without fear of an increased price or worse.

But even starting off with that statement, questions abound.  What about people who arrive at the station well ahead, but ony just catch the train because they've been caught up in hunting for a parking space, and eventually found one at the extreme far end of the car park.  What about connections of 4 minutes, when the official time is 5 - should people really have to wait another 30 minutes because the rail industry hasn't provided them with an abiity to buy thus far?   And how can you monitor these things without leaving the system wide open to people trying it on to get free travel?

I'm interested in the "conductors who stay in the cab". We've queried that a number of times on our line - we want everyone on our line to buy tickets to help passenger numbers.  It turns out that the ticket machine being carried aren't always reliable, and more often that we want the conductor would like to sell tickts but can't. And we also have overcrowding issues where the conductor phyically can't get through the train, or if he can get somewhat through, he's only able to sell tickets to a proportion of those who want them due to lack of time / length of the sales process on some more awkward transactions.

[ChrisB]

The sad thing is, this probably wouldn't be such a problem if people were honest & didn't try to defraud the railway

[TaplowGreen]

The sad thing is, this probably wouldn't be such a problem if people were honest & didn't try to defraud the railway

.............so cynical for one so young!