Rolling stock now oldest since 2001 ... GWR oldest diesels of the lot!

[whole diary]

[ChrisB]

You introduced discussion of trains off the Cotswolds....

5-car trains would be ok for off-peak trains, but not enough for peak or many of the shoulder peak services, especially if they are Cotswold Line trains. 

Which I responded to

Not until the Cotswold stations are lengthened in 2018....

Which you then altered to Oxford...

Not until the Cotswold stations are lengthened in 2018....

Though between Oxford and London they could.

Well, yes, but you were referring to Cotswold trains......

[JayMac]

 All seems perfectly on topic to me. What with this being a very general thread about old rolling stock. Natural thread progression.

[IndustryInsider]

Thanks BNM. 

I didn't alter anything as I was referring to Cotswold Line trains.  Cotswold line trains running as 10-car between Paddington and Oxford, splitting and working as 5-car beyond.

For the record I only 'introduced' Cotswold Line trains into the discussion as they are a key part of the service provision for Oxford to London services (roughly half of them originate from there), and wanted to make the distinction between loadings on those trains and loadings on the trains that just run Oxford to Paddington services.  The latter could quite easily be 5-car trains off-peak, the former might need more between Oxford and London even at off-peak times.

To sum up, I disagree with your statement that it would be commercial suicide to consider running anything less than 9-car length on Oxford to Paddington services (even if you just take those currently operated by HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) as an example), but recognise that some certainly would need to be that length.

[ChrisB]

They won't be able to run 2x5cars on the Cotswold Line until the platform extensions have been completed - so limited to 9car sets until 2018. So only 5car or 9car sets for the Cotswold Line. Intended as an hourly service, thus only one other fast service will start from OXF^» (Oxford - next trains) per hour. This was intended to be a 387 set, but obviously that will no longer be the case.

What are the seating capacities of the 5car set? Compared to a 2x3car 165?

[IndustryInsider]

They won't be able to run 2x5cars on the Cotswold Line until the platform extensions have been completed - so limited to 9car sets until 2018. So only 5car or 9car sets for the Cotswold Line. Intended as an hourly service, thus only one other fast service will start from OXF^» (Oxford - next trains) per hour. This was intended to be a 387 set, but obviously that will no longer be the case.

Yes, nobody is disagreeing with that.

What are the seating capacities of the 5car set? Compared to a 2x3car 165?

Seating is planned to be 290 standard and 36 first on a 5-car IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) set I believe, so a total of 324.

I'm not sure what you mean by '2x3car 165' but each 3-car Class 166 Turbo (I'll use those rather than 165s as they are more relevant) have a total of 264 seats after the modifications to install a disabled toilet.

[simonw]

With the limited number of platforms at Paddington and the nature of the GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) lines splitting, perhaps GWR/NR^» (Network Rail - home page) should look at running some services as

• 10/5 train splitting at Oxford for Cotswolds
• 10/5 train splitting at BPW^» (Bristol Parkway - next trains) for South Wales and Bristol
• 10/5 train splitting at Swindon for Cotwolds and Bristol

This will allow destinations to be serviced more frequently, and hopefully spread out load better.

[ChrisB]

Are they allowing splitting in service for these trains?

Am I right in thinking it's not allowed with the 165s/166s? (ie with pax aboard)

[IndustryInsider]

Both the new trains, and old trains (including Turbos), can split and join with passengers on board, providing permissive passenger signalling is available at the station concerned.

[IndustryInsider]

With the limited number of platforms at Paddington and the nature of the GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) lines splitting, perhaps GWR/NR^» (Network Rail - home page) should look at running some services as

• 10/5 train splitting at Oxford for Cotswolds
• 10/5 train splitting at BPW^» (Bristol Parkway - next trains) for South Wales and Bristol
• 10/5 train splitting at Swindon for Cotwolds and Bristol

This will allow destinations to be serviced more frequently, and hopefully spread out load better.

That might indeed be a possibility off-peak, though you have to be careful about not extending journey times too much.

[chrisr_75]

With the limited number of platforms at Paddington and the nature of the GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) lines splitting, perhaps GWR/NR^» (Network Rail - home page) should look at running some services as

• 10/5 train splitting at Oxford for Cotswolds
• 10/5 train splitting at BPW^» (Bristol Parkway - next trains) for South Wales and Bristol
• 10/5 train splitting at Swindon for Cotwolds and Bristol

This will allow destinations to be serviced more frequently, and hopefully spread out load better.

Not sure about the other 2, but a 5 car is nowhere near enough for traffic into and within South Wales, unless the frequency was doubled - Cardiff already has a half hourly service from the morning peak through to the evening peak and outside that hourly, so I can't see how frequency could really be improved without impacting other services or requiring many more new trains.

[simonw]

I used the Swansea/Cardiff train to London Padddington for 5 years, commuting from BPW^» (Bristol Parkway - next trains) to RDG^‡(resolve).

In the morning, the train was never busy until Swindon and in the evening seats where usually available from Swindon.

So, a 10 carriage train with 5 carriages restricted for Wales should be ok.

My original idea was never to replace all trains to from Wales, Coltswolds, Bristol and Southwest with split trains but to add flexible capacity to service all the main branches of the GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) network frequently. Regular 10 carriage trains will still be the back bone of the network in most places, but I don't think anyone could justify a 10 carriage train from Swansea to London every 30 minutes, or even an hour.
 

[ChrisB]

It's getting pax in the right 5car unit for their destination that will always be the problem

[JayMac]

Portion working is used in many places on the network. Getting it to work on GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) should be no more problematical than elsewhere.

[ChrisB]

So why aren't they choosing to use it now?

[didcotdean]

Of the two trains to South Wales the one only going to Cardiff is off-peak at least quite a bit lower loaded than the Swansea one - maybe this is in part because it seems to get cancelled at the slightest whiff of any main line disruption anywhere on GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway)(!). When introduced the 180 coped but I'm sure it wouldn't be enough now though.