Rolling stock now oldest since 2001 ... GWR oldest diesels of the lot!

[whole diary]

[broadgage]

HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) are among the oldest trains on the network and remain very popular, whilst voyagers are much younger and fairly widely disliked.

Pacers are, IMO^▸ (in my opinion) horrible but not due to age, they were a backward step when new. I would still rather sit on a pacer than stand on something newer.

In many cases new trains are a downgrade if compared to old as regards facilities and comfort.
Buffets, facing seats at full sized tables, and guard's vans used to be the norm for long distance services yet are now regarded as unaffordable luxuries.

[simonw]

The new Class 387s are for Thames Valley only.

The failure of the electrification project means some/all of the cascaded stock from Thames Value to Wessex area will be delayed.

For how long? No idea myself!

All I know is that the we need more trains and longer trains in the West.

The most interesting side effect of this GW^▸ (Great Western) electrification debacle will may(!) be seeing HS125 stopping services on long routes within the West of England

[IndustryInsider]

The new Class 387s are for Thames Valley only.

Yes indeed.  When you said 'local trains' I assumed you meant local trains and not specifically local trains in the west of the franchise area.  Cascade of Turbos starting early next year still, though are likely to be less in number than originally hoped, but still enough to make a significant difference, with the likelihood of short formation HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) making up the balance - especially from early 2018 when Paddington to Didcot electrification will (hopefully!) be completed.

[stuving]

For those who were scratching their heads and wondering where did that come from?, or have I seen it before? - the first post in this thread was an AP piece from October, when the ORR^» (Office of Rail and Road formerly Office of Rail Regulation - about) data were released. How and why has it reappeared two months later in so many places? I guess Ed Cox of IPPR have something to do with it, maybe to get them a name check; e.g. "Ed Cox, director of IPPR North, who carried out the study". Though some articles didn't name them at all. Whether the other comments were provided by IPPR, or buy journalists rehashing their words, I can't say as I can't find that implied IPPR release anywhere.

The ORR's figures, by the way, are averages per vehicle and from first build (i.e. ignoring even major rebuilds and reforming). They cover stock on lease by TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company), presumably from all owners not just the big three RoSCos.

As to the comments; try predicting what the age figures ought to do on the basis of known policy and actual rail operations, and there isn't much left to comment on. So the average goes up steadily all the time, and drops when a big order of new trains replace old ones or (though less) when they add to the fleet. Given the number of orders being built, you'd expect a steady fall up to now and a sharp upswing over the next few years. New trains in big numbers come to the places where capacity is needed most, which is (mainly) London commuter services. These also make enough money for replacement to be a commercial decision, where in other cities or regional services there's an element of subsidy which means queueing up for public money.

[Tim]

I don't have a problem with the average age of trains increasing just so long as the increase is less than 1 year per year because that means that new trains are being ordered.  But if there is a decent stream of new train orders, then scrapping the old trains at a slower rate than the new ones arrive at is surely good news because it means capacity is increasing. 

What the SW needs isn't new trains to replace the old trains, it is new trains to supplement the old trains

[simonw]

The West and SW desperately need more trains and longer trains.

There are way to many two carriage trains that should be running as four carriage units, with occasional splits/joins in parts of their journeys as needed.

[Bmblbzzz]

HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) are among the oldest trains on the network and remain very popular, whilst voyagers are much younger and fairly widely disliked.

Pacers are, IMO^▸ (in my opinion) horrible but not due to age, they were a backward step when new. I would still rather sit on a pacer than stand on something newer.

In many cases new trains are a downgrade if compared to old as regards facilities and comfort.
Buffets, facing seats at full sized tables, and guard's vans used to be the norm for long distance services yet are now regarded as unaffordable luxuries.

Going off on a tangent here, I think this is at least in part due to a change in the way we use railways, reflecting other changes in society generally. Whereas once trains were about "travel" now even the long distance ones tend to be aimed at "commuting". Commuters don't need much luggage space and are arguably more tolerant of lack of comfort than other travellers. It might be argued also that TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) cynically (or realistically?) see commuters as a captive market, meaning they require less in the way of comforts like tables, which take away seats and so fares. As for why commuting should have become more important in rail usage, well, more expensive property, greater particularity in the job market and the ubiquity of the dual-income household* all go to mean we're living further from work.

*The Daily Mail would probably spin this along the lines of "Death of the housewife means crowded trains" or "How feminists took away your seat".

[didcotdean]

Also rail travel is less about families and more about singles and couples. Hence the decline in the popularity of the table and the preference (or at the very least acceptance) of airline seating.

[simonw]

My decision to stop driving to work and using bicycle and train had more to do increased activity, fitness and reading time than a change in job pattern.

As I got older, the pounds appeared and driving became a chore, cycling and reading helped to address these issues.

[Tim]

My decision to stop driving to work and using bicycle and train had more to do increased activity, fitness and reading time than a change in job pattern.

As I got older, the pounds appeared and driving became a chore, cycling and reading helped to address these issues.

You lucky thing.  I wish I could loose weight by reading. 

[Surrey 455]

For those who were scratching their heads and wondering where did that come from?, or have I seen it before? - the first post in this thread was an AP piece from October, when the ORR^» (Office of Rail and Road formerly Office of Rail Regulation - about) data were released. How and why has it reappeared two months later in so many places? ....

Not two months ago. It was 1 year and two months ago.

[stuving]

For those who were scratching their heads and wondering where did that come from?, or have I seen it before? - the first post in this thread was an AP piece from October, when the ORR^» (Office of Rail and Road formerly Office of Rail Regulation - about) data were released. How and why has it reappeared two months later in so many places? ....

Not two months ago. It was 1 year and two months ago.

So it was. I'd not noticed, given the similarity of the numbers and the comments.

This year's statistics and the summary report (Rail infrastructure, assets and environmental 2015-16 Annual Statistical Release) were, however, published on October 27th. So whether or not they were reported on by AP, as last year, the delay is still two months. I was just wrong about what might have been pushed at the press at the time.

That report contains almost all of the factual quotes used in published articles. I also has more about the sources and methods for the numbers than the associated statistical quality report, e.g. it does refer to "rolling stock leasing companies (ROSCOs^» (Rolling Stock Owning Company - about)) and other financiers".

It also has a graph by major sector, showing that the main reason the London & SE fleet is a couple of years younger than the national figure is that it had a big share of the last buying binge up to 2006. And part of the reason for that is that in 2000 its fleet was a lot older than the regional sector's (20 vs 15 years). Of course the relative ages were bound to stay the same during the fast that followed the binge, up to the next big orders.

[paul7575]

It also has a graph by major sector, showing that the main reason the London & SE fleet is a couple of years younger than the national figure is that it had a big share of the last buying binge up to 2006. And part of the reason for that is that in 2000 its fleet was a lot older than the regional sector's (20 vs 15 years). Of course the relative ages were bound to stay the same during the fast that followed the binge, up to the next big orders.

Another part of the reason was the PPP ("Prescott's political panic" in this case) requirement to completely withdraw 'unsafe slam door stock' after a couple of high profile accidents.

But doesn't this present LSE misbalance just mean that, when considered again nationally at some time in the future, the area will again have the oldest average fleet?   

Paul

[John R]

Indeed, and the irony is that the introduction of TPWS^▸ (Train Protection and Warning System) around the same time has all but eliminated collisions between two trains (although Wootton Bassett came perilously close.)

[devonexpress]

In all honesty this is all a load of rubbish being used by the media to moan and groan about the price of rail fares.

In less than 6 months, Bristol & Cardiff/Swansea will have a fleet of brand new trains arriving, with Devon/Cornwall having the same in around a year or so.

And as for all this rubbish about a buffet car, you don't need a buffet car, most people prefer at seat catering these days, otherwise wouldn't airlines be copying. Guards will still on the train, its just the won't close the doors anymore(exactly the same as the voyagers, the TM^‡(resolve) tells the driver via a button who then closes then doors)

Its not removing luxuries, its modernisation.  The IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) will also remove the issue of ears popping when passing another train in a tunnel, something which HST^▸ (High Speed Train)'s have problems with because of the sliding windows.