Train GraphicClick on the map to explore geographics
 
I need help
FAQ
Emergency
About .
Travel & transport from BBC stories as at 19:55 19 Apr 2025
 
- Race Across the World winner on 'authentic travel' and how to do it
Read about the forum [here].
Register [here] - it's free.
What do I gain from registering? [here]
 10/05/25 - BRTA Westbury
10/05/25 - Model Railsay Show, Calne
13/05/25 - Melksham TUG / AGM
14/05/25 - West Wiltshire RUG

On this day
19th Apr (1938)
Foundation, Beatties of London (link)

Train RunningCancelled
20:45 Bristol Temple Meads to Weymouth
21:23 Portsmouth Harbour to Westbury
21:32 Cheltenham Spa to Swindon
22:39 Swindon to Gloucester
Short Run
15:00 Cardiff Central to Penzance
17:27 Cardiff Central to Portsmouth Harbour
18:12 Salisbury to Cheltenham Spa
18:27 Cardiff Central to Portsmouth Harbour
18:52 Worcester Foregate Street to Bristol Temple Meads
PollsThere are no open or recent polls
Abbreviation pageAcronymns and abbreviations
Stn ComparatorStation Comparator
Rail newsNews Now - live rail news feed
Site Style 1 2 3 4
Next departures • Bristol Temple MeadsBath SpaChippenhamSwindonDidcot ParkwayReadingLondon PaddingtonMelksham
Exeter St DavidsTauntonWestburyTrowbridgeBristol ParkwayCardiff CentralOxfordCheltenham SpaBirmingham New Street
April 19, 2025, 20:01:37 *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Forgotten your username or password? - get a reminder
Most recently liked subjects
[122] FOSS and FOSW validity - some quirks
[120] St Erth station - facilities, footbridge, improvements, incide...
[92] Fifteen years of the Transwilts CRP
[80] Wiltshire Day Rover - new multi-operator bus ticket
[56] Annoying / amusing use of completely irrelevant stock photos t...
[49] Across the South West over Easter - trains in pictures
 
News: A forum for passengers ... with input from rail professionals welcomed too
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: 1 [2]
  Print  
Author Topic: I never cease to be amazed ...  (Read 12720 times)
JayMac
Data Manager
Hero Member
******
Posts: 19304



View Profile
« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2015, 13:50:55 »

Despite rumours and misinformation to to contrary, the DfT» (Department for Transport - about) are yet to specify house colours in any franchise agreement they tender. Current ITTs (Invitation to Tender) don't force a franchise bidder to go with a particular livery.

It's only Transport Scotland who've made such a decision.
Logged

"Good news for regular users of Euston Station in London! One day they will die. Then they won't have to go to Euston Station ever again." - David Mitchell
ChrisB
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 13323


View Profile Email
« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2015, 14:11:43 »

Well, there wouldn't be yet, would there? :-)

The only TOC (Train Operating Company) to repaint in non-TOC colours are still in their franchise & the DfT» (Department for Transport - about) is yet to retender.
Logged
ellendune
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 4524


View Profile
« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2015, 14:17:53 »

Despite rumours and misinformation to to contrary, the DfT» (Department for Transport - about) are yet to specify house colours in any franchise agreement they tender. Current ITTs (Invitation to Tender) don't force a franchise bidder to go with a particular livery.

It's only Transport Scotland who've made such a decision.

Ok.  But, it still makes sense.  And DfT might have welcomed it even if they did not specify it!
Logged
ChrisB
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 13323


View Profile Email
« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2015, 14:28:56 »

Or even 'encouraged' it.....
Logged
TaplowGreen
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 8612



View Profile
« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2015, 20:56:48 »

My other question was regarding the service improvements which this ^12 million creates (we'll stick to it unless/until someone comes up with another figure), rather than how long it'll take First Group to recoup it?

That depends completely on whether the alleged ^12.5m partly covers the cost of refurbishing several fleets of trains or whether that was what they spent on replacing letterheads etc.?  As I said it's obviously a long-term initiative, though I totally agree that some of the wording on the press releases/posters is pretty ridiculous.

You'll probably find that a considerable lump of the ^12.5 million was spent on the services of an advertising/marketing agency - these type of people charge large amounts of money to come up with the vapid pap you highlight on the press releases/posters..........money well spent indeed.
Logged
JayMac
Data Manager
Hero Member
******
Posts: 19304



View Profile
« Reply #20 on: November 02, 2015, 17:19:41 »

Well, there wouldn't be yet, would there? :-)

So not for at least 9 years then? Based on current ITTs (Invitation to Tender).

I confidently predict that there will be no such 'house colour' provision in future ITTs awarded by the DfT» (Department for Transport - about) following expiration of current franchises, current direct awards or current extensions.
Logged

"Good news for regular users of Euston Station in London! One day they will die. Then they won't have to go to Euston Station ever again." - David Mitchell
JayMac
Data Manager
Hero Member
******
Posts: 19304



View Profile
« Reply #21 on: November 02, 2015, 17:21:29 »

Or even 'encouraged' it.....

How do they 'encourage' bidders to do something without specifying it explicitly?
Logged

"Good news for regular users of Euston Station in London! One day they will die. Then they won't have to go to Euston Station ever again." - David Mitchell
ellendune
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 4524


View Profile
« Reply #22 on: November 02, 2015, 21:48:41 »

Or even 'encouraged' it.....

How do they 'encourage' bidders to do something without specifying it explicitly?

Sir Humphrey Appleby would have mentioned it to some senior executive that the inclusion of such a point in their bid would be looked on favourably.

Logged
JayMac
Data Manager
Hero Member
******
Posts: 19304



View Profile
« Reply #23 on: November 02, 2015, 22:02:56 »

Yes Minister
« Last Edit: November 03, 2015, 09:51:05 by bignosemac » Logged

"Good news for regular users of Euston Station in London! One day they will die. Then they won't have to go to Euston Station ever again." - David Mitchell
TaplowGreen
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 8612



View Profile
« Reply #24 on: November 03, 2015, 08:29:56 »

Or even 'encouraged' it.....

How do they 'encourage' bidders to do something without specifying it explicitly?

Sir Humphrey Appleby would have mentioned it to some senior executive that the inclusion of such a point in their bid would be looked on favourably.



.............I hope you're not suggesting that Civil servants would act inappropriately in procurement matters? (Perhaps in the hope of future Non executive positions?) Wink
Logged
ellendune
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 4524


View Profile
« Reply #25 on: November 03, 2015, 18:54:40 »

.............I hope you're not suggesting that Civil servants would act inappropriately in procurement matters? (Perhaps in the hope of future Non executive positions?) Wink

Not at all - they might merely point out that such a provision in such a short term bid, would be favoured since it would be seen as offering value for money to the taxpayer in avoiding unnecessary costs for the winner of the next franchise.
Logged
stuving
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 7425


View Profile
« Reply #26 on: November 03, 2015, 20:35:38 »

Or simply waited until a full fat franchise was let. It does seem rather profligate to rebrand for a period of just 54 months. Refurbishments could have been done in existing colours. The toxic word 'First' could have been quietly dropped from the FGW (First Great Western) brand.

I thought this got thoroughly aired before, by reference to the franchise agreement. However, I can't find it now. I would have had a futile attempt to find it using the so-called "search" function, but as SQL is currently very unwell I can't do that either.

Anyway, it's in Schedule 14.2 - which I'll quote in its entirety if you like. But the key bit is at the beginning, where it says:
Quote
2.2 Subject to any applicable obligations or restrictions on the Franchisee (including the terms of the Rolling Stock Leases), the Franchisee may apply registered or unregistered trademarks (including company names, livery and other distinctive get-up) to any assets owned or used by it in the operation and provision of the Franchise Services.

I wonder how proud Eversheds are of "distinctive get-up" as legal terminology - but it does appear to cover a colour associated with the operator as a company, not with this railway.

The text goes on to say that the operator must not hand over assets with any of this branding that the successor cannot use, or else it must pay for "covering such Marks or otherwise removing all indications of or reference to the Marks in a manner reasonably acceptable to the Secretary of State." This isn't just about trains, either:
Quote
(d) The amount to be paid to a Successor Operator under paragraph 2.2(c) may include the reasonable cost of:
        (i) removing or covering Marks from the exterior of any rolling stock vehicle;
        (ii) removing or covering interior indications of the Marks including upholstery and carpets;
        (iii) replacing or covering all station or other signs including bill boards; and
        (iv) otherwise ensuring that such removal, covering or replacement is effected with all reasonable care and in such manner that the relevant assets may reasonably continue to be used by a Successor Operator in the provision of the Franchise Services.
I guess that could even extend to the overall colour scheme of the stations too, not just signage, if that was too "corporate".

I can see several grey areas here - such as what about such "marks" applied before this franchise (I have not looked at their first one), or applied now but in the same colours as before, or almost the same colour but a bit darker. As in everything else, DfT» (Department for Transport - about) have set themselves up as arbiter in any disputes between operators, so presumably they would have been consulted as to how they were minded to decide such matters. Of course a lot of the trains will be new, so unless they are left in Hitachi White some colour has to be chosen.

Logged
ellendune
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 4524


View Profile
« Reply #27 on: November 03, 2015, 22:02:56 »

So this would apply to the FGW (First Great Western) Pink and Blue livery which is clearly First Group Livery, but it would not apply necessarily to the GWR (Great Western Railway) branding which First may be prepared to pass to a subsequent franchisee, or to the Green colour without the GWR branding.  I seem to recall the GWR name as a brand belongs to DfT» (Department for Transport - about) in some form. 
Logged
stuving
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 7425


View Profile
« Reply #28 on: November 03, 2015, 22:34:52 »

The GWR (Great Western Railway) logo was registered (UK00003064468) by First in their name. They might offer it for transfer, or rely on its removal by peeling it off; though quite what they would do with it with no franchise I can't imagine. I don't see why they should need to make that public, at least not for a while yet.
Logged
Do you have something you would like to add to this thread, or would you like to raise a new question at the Coffee Shop? Please [register] (it is free) if you have not done so before, or login (at the top of this page) if you already have an account - we would love to read what you have to say!

You can find out more about how this forum works [here] - that will link you to a copy of the forum agreement that you can read before you join, and tell you very much more about how we operate. We are an independent forum, provided and run by customers of Great Western Railway, for customers of Great Western Railway and we welcome railway professionals as members too, in either a personal or official capacity. Views expressed in posts are not necessarily the views of the operators of the forum.

As well as posting messages onto existing threads, and starting new subjects, members can communicate with each other through personal messages if they wish. And once members have made a certain number of posts, they will automatically be admitted to the "frequent posters club", where subjects not-for-public-domain are discussed; anything from the occasional rant to meetups we may be having ...

 
Pages: 1 [2]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.2 | SMF © 2006-2007, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
This forum is provided by customers of Great Western Railway (formerly First Great Western), and the views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that the content provided by one of our posters contravenes our posting rules via admin@railcustomer.info. Full legal statement (here).

Jump to top of pageJump to Forum Home Page