Do we regard FGW in a different light to Wessex (Re: Catering Facilities)

[whole diary]

[Lee]

This topic has been split from "Catering Facilities" - Graham

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=1614.0

Is it only my perception, but are these sort of errors now regarded differently when made by FGW^▸ (First Great Western). I^m sure that similar mistakes were made during the Wessex period but they seemed to be able to respond positively when these things were highlighted. It seemed somehow forgivable under Wessex as they appeared to be making every effort, but is b****y annoying because it^s First.

I think tramway makes an interesting point. Lets look at it this way :

We now have a forum that allows passengers, staff and anyone interested in the issues to put their views (good and bad) specifically about FGW.

Was there a forum run on similiar lines, highlighting similiar issues about Wessex?

Genuine question, as I am sure that some of our current contributors would have been members of such a forum.

[grahame]

It seemed somehow forgivable under Wessex as they appeared to be making every effort, but is b****y annoying because it^s First.

This is the hurdle that FGW^▸ (First Great Western) seem unable to get over, and unless FGW can win the hearts and minds the way Wessex did then they will forever be seen as the huge conglomerate bus company out for a fast buck, kowtowing to DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) demands, with the poor bloody passenger (PBP) a pawn between the two.

Sorry to hijack the thread, but this is an important question ... leaving aside (as per your wish) the following section. 

Do people think it is possible for First to win the hearts and minds in this way? 

I know that I have flown a lot with two major airlines, both parts of large organisations and have suffered delays and cancellations with both.  But there's something about the attitude of the whole team - from the most junior of staff to the CEOs^▸ (Chief Executive Officer) - of one of them; they come out "sorry - that should not have happened" and they bend over backwards to put it right.  The other cancelled a flight on me 10 days before Christmas and then told me they were fully booked, and that I could fly 14 days later.  Guess which one I prefer now.

Wessex Trains are / were part of a large group too - National Express. And yet they managed to improve the service to my home town quite dramatically, and as a result saw a huge increase in traffic.   Sure, the trains were a bit shabby, somewhat infrequent, sometimes late and occasionally cancelled.  And if First were also providing a service that was a bit shabby, somewhat infrequent, sometimes late and occasionally cancelled we would be moaning a bit but I suspect this board would not exist - it certainly wouldn't if they took the attutude of the first airline I described.

However.  "Somewhat infrequent" has changed into "Bl**dy infrequent" with more than half the trains withdrawn, and the remaining few trains running at time that are away from the peak when they're wanted. I've no measure of lateness, but I think it is a noticably worse.  And an order of magnitude more trains are cancelled - truely shocking when you consider that most of the trains have been withdrawn anyway. Oh - and the price of a day return to London, bought on the day during the week has risen from under 50 pounds (on the 09:12) to over 100 pounds (on the 07:17) or even more on the 06:43.

I'm going to stick my neck out and say that I think it IS possible for First to win the hearts and minds hearabouts.  If they re-provide something that's approaching an appropriate service, reduce cancellations down to about the number that used to be cancelled by Wessex, then any shabbyness and a few delays would be forgiven.

[Lee]

I am going to refer you to a predictive post I made on 27 December 2007 :

As I said earlier in the topic, the main problem is public perception. We forum members who, perhaps, have gained a little more knowledge of how the current situation came about than the average punter know that a) it isnt all FGW^▸ (First Great Western)'s fault and b) it is unlikely to be resolved quickly.

However, with a media frenzy which will soon be fed further by the upcoming MTLS^▸ (More Train Less Strain) action, growing calls from MP^▸ (Member of Parliament)'s for "something to be done" and the fact that passengers see FGW's name on the side of a train service which is simply not delivering, the result is a PR^▸ (Public Relations) disaster of nightmarish proportions.

One that Haines knows he needs to resolve quickly, hence his focus on "customer excellence." Will he get the time he requires? Forster didnt, and many commentators (among them several forum members) spoke highly of her as well.

[tramway]

I think tramway makes an interesting point. Lets look at it this way :

We now have a forum that allows passengers, staff and anyone interested in the issues to put their views (good and bad) specifically about FGW^▸ (First Great Western).

Was there a forum run on similiar lines, highlighting similiar issues about Wessex?

Genuine question, as I am sure that some of our current contributors would have been members of such a forum.

Apologies for this being short, I'll provide a bit more later, Wessex were never going to get this sort of response, if anything I believe they would have started the forum themselves if asked.

They were almost there with the fans area, just a bit more time and who knows what would have happened.

[tramway]

Sorry to hijack the thread, but this is an important question ... leaving aside (as per your wish) the following section. 

Do people think it is possible for First to win the hearts and minds in this way? 

Wessex Trains are / were part of a large group too - National Express. And yet they managed to improve the service to my home town quite dramatically, and as a result saw a huge increase in traffic.   Sure, the trains were a bit shabby, somewhat infrequent, sometimes late and occasionally cancelled.  And if First were also providing a service that was a bit shabby, somewhat infrequent, sometimes late and occasionally cancelled we would be moaning a bit but I suspect this board would not exist - it certainly wouldn't if they took the attutude of the first airline I described.

I'm going to stick my neck out and say that I think it IS possible for First to win the hearts and minds hearabouts.  If they re-provide something that's approaching an appropriate service, reduce cancellations down to about the number that used to be cancelled by Wessex, then any shabbyness and a few delays would be forgiven.

Grahame/Lee and everyone.

Grahame, thank you for your time time to add to my earler very quick post, that was definately the main thrust of my comment, unfortunately I've normally very little time to contribute here so have to try to do things in one go.

I could always ask for a poll on a dedicated MTLS^▸ (More Train Less Strain) haters area. 

[Lee]

I could always ask for a poll on a dedicated MTLS^▸ (More Train Less Strain) haters area. 

You can only take democracy so far....and I think we have enough MTLS debate on open forum.....

[Timmer]

I would suggest the answer to the question in the title would depend on your experience of First in your local area in regards to bus travel. Why bus travel you may well ask? Because before First got involved in rail travel they were a bus company and how good or bad they were at operating buses in your area may have formed your opinion of them as a company before they got involved with running trains.

National Express are a bus company too you may say but they are a coach company that has been around for many years, A well known brand name that people trust to deliver one thing coaches on a national basis. Up until recently National Express did not brand any of their trains. Each company had their own identity including Wessex Trains. If you were to ask Joe Public who owned Wessex Trains I suspect most wouldn't have been able to tell you.

Wessex Trains were good at making themselves a friendly local company running your local trains popular with passengers and dare I say the staff too? This is where First have got a lot of ground to make up on because they look like they simply don't care about their passengers. Do you think that if they were a struggling company doing the best they could with what they had that MTLS^▸ (More Train Less Strain) would exist? Its because they are a large and very profitable company that passengers aren't prepared to put up with the service they have been receiving.

Going back to the start of my post. From a personal point of view I have always struggled to like First as a company because of my experience with their running of buses in Bath where I live. Though it has improved somewhat over the past couple of years, my opinion of them as a company was formed when they were a shoddy outfit in terms of operating a decent service in the city and I find it hard to forget that when I see what has happened to part of the franchise that was operated by Wessex Trains since they took over it with the help of the DFT^▸ (Department for Transport) of course!

[Conner]

Timmer, I think I have the same problem as you.
First operate nearly all the busses in West Cornwall and they cost a small fortune, they're always late and often don't turn up.
Also about five years ago First cut the bus service past my house from two hourly to not at all. This left me with a two mile walk to another bus stop. This seriously damaged my reputation of them.
Then they start running are local services and they cut are local timetable so there is no destination beyond Plymouth or Exeter directly. Then they nick are branchilne units for Bristol. Then they take away the 158's which allowed people to travel in comfort.

[Lee]

I think the comments by both the Bristol Evening Post and their readers regarding the article in the link below are good examples of why First's bus reputation does the perception of FGW^▸ (First Great Western) no favours among "Joe Public."
http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=1634.msg10912#msg10912

[FarWestJohn]

I think First made a big mistake in 'losing' Wessex services into Corporate First. They may have had to legally change the name Wessex but they should have kept the local services looking separate.

Towards the end Wessex had improved immeasurably from the days of Prism rail and 'Wales and West'. People in the West like things regional and felt that Wessex was 'their' railway with a more local identity. Their services were usually on time in comparison with late running First Great Western and the staff were nearly always very helpful.

Now all services look the same in their Corporate livery and our still good local services get a bad press as they are thought of in the same light as First Group. The messy 150 livery with a load of names over the side does not look very local, it just looks corporate first.

It is amazing how many people still comment favourably when a smart light blue St.Ives bay or Looe line 153 appears, they like the local touch.

I have always been very pro rail but I try to avoid First Great Western as much as possible. I actively seek out a Voyager or a 150 compared with the appalling refurbished Mark 3 carriages.

I read the comments about National Express but I noticed in Truro the other day that First provide the coaches or drivers for National Express in Cornwall. It did not make clear exactly how this works. There are even National Express notices on First buses explaining the ease of access to Heathrow by coach.

Western Greyhound with their involvement with Stagecoach are becoming more and more noticeable in Cornwall. Having a large presence in North and Mid Cornwall they also took over many routes in West Cornwall last year from Sunset.
 

[tramway]

I would suggest the answer to the question in the title would depend on your experience of First in your local area in regards to bus travel. Why bus travel you may well ask? Because before First got involved in rail travel they were a bus company and how good or bad they were at operating buses in your area may have formed your opinion of them as a company before they got involved with running trains.

Pure arrogance if you ask me, we don't care what people think, we won the franchise and are going to make sure everyone knows about it, even if you don't like us very much.

National Express are a bus company too you may say but they are a coach company that has been around for many years, A well known brand name that people trust to deliver one thing coaches on a national basis. Up until recently National Express did not brand any of their trains. Each company had their own identity including Wessex Trains. If you were to ask Joe Public who owned Wessex Trains I suspect most wouldn't have been able to tell you.

Wessex Trains were good at making themselves a friendly local company running your local trains popular with passengers and dare I say the staff too? This is where First have got a lot of ground to make up on because they look like they simply don't care about their passengers. Do you think that if they were a struggling company doing the best they could with what they had that MTLS^▸ (More Train Less Strain) would exist? Its because they are a large and very profitable company that passengers aren't prepared to put up with the service they have been receiving.

Totally agree, why completely remove a respected 'Brand'. History is littered with similar examples, I've never bought a Snickers bar. By the way is there a bring back the 'Marathon' campaign.

From a personal point of view I have always struggled to like First as a company because of my experience with their running of buses in Bath where I live. Though it has improved somewhat over the past couple of years.

Your Polish must be getting better

[grahame]

I read the comments about National Express but I noticed in Truro the other day that First provide the coaches or drivers for National Express in Cornwall. It did not make clear exactly how this works. There are even National Express notices on First buses explaining the ease of access to Heathrow by coach.

Part (and I think a major part) or National Express is actually a franchise operation. If you catch the "National Express" Coach from London's Heathrow to Chippenham, you 'll find that it's actually operated by First Somerset and Avon ... very incestuous business 

[tramway]

History of NEG from their web site.

http://www.nationalexpress.com/utilities/about.cfm

The trip from Frome to Heathrow is only once a day, first thing in the morning and back late at night so it's probably makes sense to contract out this service. I'll ask a few drivers I know how it works.

[Tim]

FGW^▸ (First Great Western) have it tougher than Wessex did because as fares rise so do passenger expectations.  When I am paying ^130 to get from Bath to London I expect the best and get hacked off when First fail to deliver.  When I was paying Wessex ^13 to get to Cardiff and things went wrong I was less annoyed.  And when I paid BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) even less for that journey and things went wrong I was annoyed with the Government who under funded BR not with BR itself.

A reasonably OK service is not good enough because my fare is not reasonable.  My fare is high so I expect the service standard to also be high.  This may well be unreasonable on my part but it is fairly basic human physcology

(FGW also shoot themselves in by sticking "transforming travel" on all of their antimacessars.)

[Jim]

History of NEG from their web site.

http://www.nationalexpress.com/utilities/about.cfm

The trip from Frome to Heathrow is only once a day, first thing in the morning and back late at night so it's probably makes sense to contract out this service. I'll ask a few drivers I know how it works.

The 402 is First Somerset and Avon.