E-bike and E-scooter - ongoing issues and discussion (merged posts)

[whole diary]

[4064ReadingAbbey]

Electrically assisted bikes are also very popular in Germany. There are two main types, the e-bike which is essentially an electric moped - that is it runs on battery power alone and one doesn't have to pedal - and the pedelec. The electric motor in the latter only assists the pedalling action - if one stops pedalling the electric assistance also stops.

If the e-bike can exceed a certain speed - I think it's 15kph - then the rider must have insurance like a moped. Equally the pedelec must not supply assistance if the speed is greater than than the 15?kph.

Both my wife an I have pedelecs which we bought in Germany six or seven years ago. Brilliant - essentially the motor support cancels out the headwind...!

Obviously they are slightly heavier than a normal bike but both fit a heavy duty bike carrier which locks onto the tow hitch of our car.

To be recommended.

[Bmblbzzz]

Ebikes that supply power when the rider is not pedalling are not legal in UK^▸ (United Kingdom) (unless registered, insured, etc as an electric moped, of course – in which case the speed limit becomes 30mph not 15mph). There are plenty of them around of course, just as there are plenty of pedelecs which carry on supplying power at over 15mph. In fact the only electric bike users I know (both actually have trikes) have modified their cycles to operate on power without pedalling (one has a switch, the other has a throttle) for disability reasons (they both have mobility problems). Neither has altered the 15mph cut out though. (As a further factlet, I think switch or throttle power is legal in UK at walking speed, which has a legal definition for this purpose – not sure of the precise figure but it's around 3 or 4 mph. This is to assist low-speed manoeuvrability, such as through gates.)

[brompton rail]

I think a throttle on an ebike is OK as long as it adjust the power input to the motor (other bikes use a simple + or - to adjust power). This adjust the power of the electric motor from ‘no power’ up to ‘max’ or ‘turbo’ (on Bosch motors). However the point is that unless the rider turns the pedals and applies pressure the motor will not kick in. So, you ride easily along the flat with minimum power, or no power, and then come to a hill and you can add power so that YOU are putting in the same effort but the motor is helping too.

Taking electric bikes on trains is as ‘easy’ or ‘difficult’ as an ordinary bike. I have taken both a Brompton Electric folder and Gazelle ebikes and other full size ebikes on trains with little problems. However electric bikes are heavier than ordinary bikes and lifting them into HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) etc can be challenging. Gazelle bikes don’t fit into Voyager cupboards so might be problematic on IETs^▸ (Intercity Express Train). Class 150s, 158s and even Pacers aren’t much of a problem.

[Bmblbzzz]

I think a throttle on an ebike is OK as long as it adjust the power input to the motor (other bikes use a simple + or - to adjust power). This adjust the power of the electric motor from ‘no power’ up to ‘max’ or ‘turbo’ (on Bosch motors).

Yes. I was thinking of something different though, or two different things: a throttle that adjusts speed directly to the wheel, like a motorbike throttle, which is illegal but fairly common; and a "walk" button, which AIUI^▸ (as I understand it) is legal.

However the point is that unless the rider turns the pedals and applies pressure the motor will not kick in. So, you ride easily along the flat with minimum power, or no power, and then come to a hill and you can add power so that YOU are putting in the same effort but the motor is helping too.

Yes, that's how they're meant to work in British law. In most of Europe (I'm not sure about America and places) I think it's legal to have power without pedalling, as long as the motor cuts out at 25km/h. Again, it's common to see bikes like this in UK^▸ (United Kingdom) too, either grey imports or illegal home mods.

[grahame]

From Passenger Transport but widely covered elsewhere

New regulations allowing trials of rental e-scooters will come into force this weekend, transport minister Rachel Maclean has announced.

The first trials are expected to begin next week. Local authorities and devolved administrations hosting the trials can allow or run the rental schemes in their areas, as outlined in accompanying guidance for areas and rental operators published this week.

The trials are designed to help understand whether the devices reduce motor traffic, as well as their impacts on safety for their users and others. Local residents will soon be able to use e-scooters on roads, cycle lanes and tracks, but they will be strictly prohibited on pavements. E-scooters will be limited to 15.5mph and riders are recommended to wear helmets.

Users will need a full or provisional car, motorcycle or moped licence to take part in the trials, and must be 16 or over. To avoid a flood of poor-quality scooters onto the streets, the regulations only cover rental schemes. Individually owned scooters will still be illegal on public roads.

What do members think?

Would YOU try one? Use one regularly?

What do you make of the "rentals only" and other rules?

Should we have them under "Buses and other ways to travel" or "Active Travel"?

Where would the best rental site trials in our area be?

[rogerw]

I have mixed feelings about this. If, a very big IF, they are confined to the carriageway, with penalty points for using on the footway, are covered by at least third party insurance and fitted with adequate warning devices I think it might work. But who is going to enforce all this?

[bobm]

I already see a fair few flying up and down the path beneath my office window.

Big question for me is how is anyone supposed to identify a (legal) rented one against an (illegal) private one?

[Bmblbzzz]

At face value, it seems like a missed opportunity. As bobm says, e-scooters, electric skateboards, electric monowheels and probably other things have been on the roads for a couple of years now, so to exclude those latter categories and restrict e-scooters to those hired, does nothing to regulate the vehicles already in use. The requirement for a driving licence is also perverse, prohibiting their use by those who would most benefit. However, if this is in fact to be a trial and will be followed by more comprehensive legislation, covering all sorts of "low-speed electric personal miniature vehicles" (my clumsy phrase in the absence of an official term), then it could work out okay.

The details of weight and power are odd though: 500W and 55kg. Compare that to an EAPC^» (Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycles - webpage) (electrically assisted pedal cycle or e-bike), 250W and (I think) 25kg. I can only presume the weight limit is so high to allow more batteries and therefore less frequent charging for the hire companies and the power limit perhaps to make them more appealing. It could lead to some interesting moments though on what's basically a motorised plank with tiny wheels, usually no pneumatic tyres and necessarily limited braking.  The speed restriction remains the same, 25km/h (15.5mph).

If it gets a few people out of cars, it's good.

[PhilWakely]

As with all vehicles - motorised or otherwise - acceptability depends on the awareness of the rider/driver. Used properly by an experienced rider, fully aware of the rules and regulations, I think they can be a good thing.

However, in the hands of the wrong person, they can be lethal. I have already witnessed two very close shaves...... one where an older teenager, riding on the pavement, failed to see a car coming out of a side turning and only narrowly avoided a collision; and a second, where an 'older city-gent-type' chap, riding on the road, went straight through a red light and only just avoided colliding with a car crossing their path.

[grahame]

Big question for me is how is anyone supposed to identify a (legal) rented one against an (illegal) private one?

The legal ones have rental company livery and logo smartly applied.   If you look at the paintwork on the illegal ones, you'll find the lines are a bit wavy, the colours a bit out, and there's something wrong with the logo.

[broadgage]

E-scooters should in my view be encouraged in view of the reduced pollution and congestion compared to cars.

I would subject them to the same limitations on speed, weight, and power output as are applied to electrically assisted cycles. And in general subject to the same rules.
The adoption of electric cycles has NOT led to widespread loss of life or other mayhem, and E-scooters could therefore be treated similarly.

[grahame]

E-scooters should in my view be encouraged in view of the reduced pollution and congestion compared to cars.

I would subject them to the same limitations on speed, weight, and power output as are applied to electrically assisted cycles. And in general subject to the same rules.
The adoption of electric cycles has NOT led to widespread loss of life or other mayhem, and E-scooters could therefore be treated similarly.

I have "like"d that ... and indeed I am repeating it to confirm that like.

It makes sense to have low powered / speed electric assistance for the "final mile" and much of the objection relates to the infrastructure, safety and regulation issues - all important but all which should be overcome in something that is inherently a way forward.

We already have mobility chairs, and electric cycles.  Logical to go forward with electric scooters, segways, etc - power assisted local vehicles that can displace larger (and still often fossil fuelled) vehicles on short local runs for single people - runs to the the shops for individual item purchases / small shops, runs to services and social trips, and runs to public transport hubs.

I too have misgivings - seeing mobility chairs making their way up Spa Road way in excess of 4 m.p.h., many good drivers but also the aggressive and less safety aware pensioner drivers who act as is they own the pavement.  We have reports from time to time of cyclists who act as if they own infrastructure too, and at times we seem to be trying to fit a quart into a pint pot.

I asked earlier "where should the early hire places be?".  I am away of a shop (it's physically a shop premises) just a few yards up the road from WEYMOUTH station towards the sea front that hires out mobility chairs by the day - enabling people arriving on day trips to get around the sea front, the town, and perhaps down to the harbour and even a little beyond.   Perhaps a different market, though a pointer?   The seafront at Weymouth hosts a wider variety of travel modes on the road and wide esplanade ... heck, there's even a land train.

[CyclingSid]

The seafront at Weymouth hosts a wider variety of travel modes on the road and wide esplanade

But in the case of Weymouth, fairly large areas of prohibition of bicycles. So will bikes be prohibited but e-scooters acceptable?

[TaplowGreen]

As long as they stay off the pavement and observe the same rules of the road that all others are expected to I can't see an objection, although no doubt a few careless souls will keep the hospitals and undertakers busy via natural selection.

[grahame]

From https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-53272688

The first trial of an e-scooter rental scheme in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) will be held in the North East, a mayor has announced.

One hundred scooters will be available for rent in Teesside, Darlington and Hartlepool later in July, Tees Valley mayor Ben Houchen said.

The pilot will start after the government agreed to legalise rental e-scooters on roads.

They will also be allowed on cycle lanes, for riders over 16 who have at least a provisional driving licence.

The scooters will be provided by Ginger, and riders will have to leave the battery-powered vehicle in certain locations for charging.