E-bike and E-scooter - ongoing issues and discussion (merged posts)

[whole diary]

[ChrisB]

Glad it wasn't your mother, Broadgage.

Sorry, one further death is a death that need not have happened.

[broadgage]

Glad it wasn't your mother, Broadgage.

Sorry, one further death is a death that need not have happened.

True, but society seems to tolerate deaths caused by cycles, horses, mobility scooters, and oversize pedestrians despite the fact that those deaths "need not have happened" in most cases.

[bobm]

Part of the problem is we muddied the waters by allowing shared pedestrian and cycle pavements.  Since then it seems we have some cyclists regarding all pavements as accessible. 

For reasons I don’t understand one of my neighbours has a gate which opens out onto
the street.  It is only a matter of time before it blows open in the wind in front of a cycle or scooter.

[broadgage]

Near me, there is a shared footpath and cycleway beside a busy road but generally separated therefrom. This results in frequent complaints about "cycling on the footpath" despite signs indicating that this is permitted.

[CyclingSid]

Cycles are not meant to be used on the pavement, but enforcement of this is rare.

Reason: https://news.npcc.police.uk/releases/support-for-police-discretion-when-responding-to-people-cycling-on-the-pavement

Which, in general, means because of lack of resources it generally is not enforced (except just before local government elections?)

[TaplowGreen]

I find that the motorist/cyclist on the roads debate is one best avoided as both sides have a total position of entitlement and an unshakeable conviction of the righteousness of their own cause - there never seems to be room for compromise.

It's worrying that this debate now seems to be expanding to cyclists/pedestrians on pavements, with the addition of scooters which seem to add nothing positive but instead present danger to their riders and all other pedestrians/motorists/cyclists whichever carriageway they use.

I think I may invest in something which allows me to hover 6 ft above both roads and pavements, all I will need to worry about then is the occasional pigeon.

[TonyK]

Cycles are not meant to be used on the pavement, but enforcement of this is rare.

Reason: https://news.npcc.police.uk/releases/support-for-police-discretion-when-responding-to-people-cycling-on-the-pavement

Which, in general, means because of lack of resources it generally is not enforced (except just before local government elections?)

It is always enforced when someone dies. We are in the new normal situation where, when the horse bolts, someone from the police or council will pop round a couple of days later to shut the stable door.

[Bmblbzzz]

Part of the problem is we muddied the waters by allowing shared pedestrian and cycle pavements.  Since then it seems we have some cyclists regarding all pavements as accessible. 

And not just allowing but encouraging. The root of the problem is that roads (carriageways) have become inhospitable for cyclists and pedestrians, squeezing them all together onto the pavements, which often aren't big enough just for pedestrians never mind cyclists too.

[Marlburian]

This report states that 14 year old riding a privately owned E-scooter has been convicted after a fatal accident.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-64892358

This is said to be the first pedestrian fatality resulting from E-scooter use, which would seem to confirm my view that the risks are so small as to be acceptable. We do accept the use of cycles after all, a somewhat comparable transport mode. Cycles are not meant to be used on the pavement, but enforcement of this is rare.

On another forum to which I belong there was some debate about the case of a pedestrian whose reaction to a cyclist resulted in the latter's death: Sky News

In that forum I myself compared the two sentences, without making any judgement, though I did refer to the father's action in buying the e-scooter.

[DaveHarries]

Where I live we are unfortunately rife with these damn machines and too many people riding them on pavements (despite the hiring company's comments that they would do something about the large amount of pavement riding which takes place) often too fast. I know exactly what I would do with them.

Dave

[Marlburian]

Giovanna Drago, thought to be the first electric scooter rider to bring a case to court and sue a city council for failing to maintain a road and cause injury, has lost her £30,000 claim for damages against Barnet council in London.

A reasonable verdict. But should/when all e-scooters become legal on public roads there will be plenty of scope for "contrived" accidents. There will always be damaged road surfaces and e-scooters' small  wheels make them dangerous.

Meanwhile, Parisians have voted by a significant majority to ban e-scooters.

[Bmblbzzz]

To be more precise, Paris has voted to ban hired e-scooters. Private ones are still legal – so it's the exact opposite of the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) legal situation!

Also, I'm not sure what the legal definition of Paris is, but with only 1.38 million electorate, it's clearly only a small part of the metropolitan area. And as for the turnout, clearly most people aren't bothered one way or the other.

[grahame]

To be more precise, Paris has voted to ban hired e-scooters. Private ones are still legal – so it's the exact opposite of the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) legal situation!

There is some logic in the Paris approach. One of the big issues with hire scooters is having them left laying around all over the place, whereas with a private scooter more care will be taken of them.  Another is that riders will tend to be more committed and experienced and know better what they are doing.  Of course, one disadvantage of the Paris approach is that it reduced commercial opportunity.

[stuving]

To be more precise, Paris has voted to ban hired e-scooters. Private ones are still legal – so it's the exact opposite of the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) legal situation!

Also, I'm not sure what the legal definition of Paris is, but with only 1.38 million electorate, it's clearly only a small part of the metropolitan area. And as for the turnout, clearly most people aren't bothered one way or the other.

Indeed - as is often the case, most of those with strong enough feelings to go out and vote were antis. Given that the main arguments have been about safety, that's not a surprise. It's hard to say what they think about private ones - that owners would be more careful riders, or that there would never be many of them (even if hiring is no longer possible), or what. Nor is it possible to compare that with here, since we have the inverse problem: riders of private scooters are a sample biased towards being irresponsible.

Administrative Paris (département 75) is Paris "intra muros", where the wall was Adolphe Thiers's one of the 1840s. After failing spectacularly to do anything useful in 1870, it was taken down - mostly in the 1920s - and slowly replaced by various things, including a huge number of sporting facilities, and the péripherique.  When you walk across the gap to the banlieu outside, the contrast in the style of buildings, street layout, nature of the shops, etc, is in some  places quite stark.

[TonyK]

There seemed to be quite a few scooters in the recent bonfires around Paris. That should have given a clue to feelings.