E-bike and E-scooter - ongoing issues and discussion (merged posts)

[whole diary]

[TonyK]

We know there are fire risks to lithium batteries but we also know those risks can be controlled, and in the commonest consumer items, they are. It's very rare for a fire to start from a laptop or phone battery, for instance. I've heard of fires from cheap Chinese bike lights bought on Ali Express or Ebay, but not from those made by manufacturers with reputations (that includes Chinese manufacturers like Fenix as well as the Americans or Japanese etc). Electric scooters are probably found at various points on this scale...

Rare indeed, given that almost 2.4 billion mobile phones and an unknown number of other Li batteries do not catch fire each day. It's the "almost" that is the problem, and the laws of physics dictate that it will be in Bristol.

[broadgage]

Large lithium batteries make me rather nervous, and those of cheap or unknown origins make me very nervous.
The technology is arguably no more dangerous than is petrol, but petrol has been in general use for 100 years and society accepts the risks. Lithium batteries are still fairly new technology and society tends to be far less accepting of new risks.

And of course petrol is not meant to be taken on most public transport.

The other difference between petrol and lithium batteries is that MOST accidents involving petrol are due to misuse or stupidity, but poorly manufactured lithium batteries can catch fire even used sensibly.

And of course petrol should not normally be stored or used in living accommodation but lithium batteries are routinely used thus.

[Bmblbzzz]

We know there are fire risks to lithium batteries but we also know those risks can be controlled, and in the commonest consumer items, they are. It's very rare for a fire to start from a laptop or phone battery, for instance. I've heard of fires from cheap Chinese bike lights bought on Ali Express or Ebay, but not from those made by manufacturers with reputations (that includes Chinese manufacturers like Fenix as well as the Americans or Japanese etc). Electric scooters are probably found at various points on this scale...

Rare indeed, given that almost 2.4 billion mobile phones and an unknown number of other Li batteries do not catch fire each day. It's the "almost" that is the problem, and the laws of physics dictate that it will be in Bristol.

What about Newton's First Law of Tauntodynamics?

[CyclingSid]

https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/news/uk-commuters-hit-by-train-cancellations-offered-free-use-of-e-bikes-3535

Halfords has pledged to offer any rail commuter with a valid season ticket the use of one of their e-bikes while the current rail disruption is ongoing.

[froome]

While I'm on the Active Travel section, a small point but one that irks me. Can I just point out that e-scooters are not 'active travel', and are not akin to cyclists or walkers. They are electrically powered vehicles, but unlike e-cycles, do not need any activity to make them move, so play no part in giving users the health benefits that walking and cycling do. There are obviously other benefits they may give users and the general environment, but that is another matter.

[broadgage]

IMO^▸ (in my opinion), E-scooters are slightly active travel, more so than driving or sitting on a train.

Although electrically powered, they do do require a little effort, used standing up rather than sitting in a car, need one foot placed on the ground when static or nearly so, user needs to lean into corners.

[grahame]

While I'm on the Active Travel section, a small point but one that irks me. Can I just point out that e-scooters are not 'active travel', and are not akin to cyclists or walkers. They are electrically powered vehicles, ...

IMO^▸ (in my opinion), E-scooters are slightly active travel, more so than driving or sitting on a train ...

Good points both.   Forum board choice borderline!   Personally, I am - just - inclined to leave the thread where it is and there's a personal element there in that using a e-scooter requires a certain physical health and I think of it as being something that I would question whether I would be fit enough to make use of, and/or could only use it over very limited distances.   As such, it goes with cycling and walking rather than a motor cycle which is borderline the other way.

[TonyK]

...there's a personal element there in that using a e-scooter requires a certain physical health...

So does sitting upright in an armchair in front of the telly with a fag in the corner of the mouth, beer in one hand and a Big Mac in the other. With fries. But I'm not advocating moving the thread, which sounds too much like hard work.

[grahame]

...there's a personal element there in that using a e-scooter requires a certain physical health...

So does sitting upright in an armchair in front of the telly with a fag in the corner of the mouth, beer in one hand and a Big Mac in the other. With fries. But I'm not advocating moving the thread, which sounds too much like hard work.

Yes, but that isn't travel ... except in a virtual way to places on the telly, or in a more conceptual way towards ill health.

Thread moves are actually "silly easy" but thank you for the get-out.  There's no ideal board for tis one.

[IndustryInsider]

Yes, but that isn't travel ... except in a virtual way to places on the telly, or in a more conceptual way towards ill health.

Or time travel if you're watching Doctor Who. 

[CyclingSid]

The grouping tends to be "Active and Sustainable Travel" which apart from the obvious active ones includes rail, bus and taxi (don't tend to agree with the latter), so e-scooters would probably come under that category? When you come to electric cars??

[grahame]

The grouping tends to be "Active and Sustainable Travel" which apart from the obvious active ones includes rail, bus and taxi (don't tend to agree with the latter), so e-scooters would probably come under that category? When you come to electric cars??

Picking up an old question there -  and e-Scooters look like they're going to moved on from "Trial + Illegal" mode to "regulated, governed (taxed??)" mode - see Grant Shapps utterances at https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-61250302

The article is interesting in that it chooses the control of negatives (illegal scooter issues) in priority over the potential new era approach of having them available but with regulation or safety controls (choose which you call it) in place.

[Marlburian]

Who's going to enforce any new regulations? I gather that most police forces don't turn out for shoplifting offences when the cost of the stolen goods is under £200.

Same with pavement parking, where a consultation has been going on for what seems a very long time. Already there's a formal ban on my road that is ignored, though I concede that the only notices are tiny signs affixed to random lamp-posts.

But the law did act here:=https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-gloucestershire-61243033

[grahame]

Who's going to enforce any new regulations?

Is it the sign of a modern and authoritarian society that there's a heavy network of rules and regulations put in to place, many of which are impractical and largely ignored, especially by those who are associates of the rule setters, but then brought into play by others for whom they offer a mechanism.

These comment could relate to anything from people who have failed to follow the Covid rules, though to those people who fail to show their railcard when purchasing tickets with railcard discounts (I have always felt pretty stupid waving a railcard at the ticket machine a my local station to satisfy their rule!!)

In other words, expect a few token, headline cases, and perhaps a couple of road / path block in high profile places to show authority to act ...

[TonyK]

Is it the sign of a modern and authoritarian society that there's a heavy network of rules and regulations put in to place, many of which are impractical and largely ignored, especially by those who are associates of the rule setters, but then brought into play by others for whom they offer a mechanism.

These comment could relate to anything from people who have failed to follow the Covid rules, though to those people who fail to show their railcard when purchasing tickets with railcard discounts (I have always felt pretty stupid waving a railcard at the ticket machine a my local station to satisfy their rule!!)

In other words, expect a few token, headline cases, and perhaps a couple of road / path block in high profile places to show authority to act ...

There are countries where anything goes, so long as it is not expressly forbidden, and others where everything is forbidden unless it's compulsory. We seem to be somewhere in the middle.

Nobody has to carry their driving licence with them when driving a car, and a driver in car that looks roadworthy from a distance who stays within speed limits and doesn't drive like a fool is unlikely to be asked to show it. At the scene of an accident serious enough to require the presence of the police, however, it is likely to be among the first questions. I think that more widespread use of e-Scooters may lead to a similar trend of toleration unless someone gets hurt by a scooterist's actions, at which point the full might of the law will be brought to bear. If things get too out of hand, there won't be any question of banning scooters completely, the more likely option being registration, licensing and insurance requirements, and souped up models with sirens and flashing lights for police patrols to use to catch the speed merchants who tweak their own machine to above the 15.5 mph limit.

This particular genie isn't going back into the bottle. Of equal concern could be the effect on buses - Bristol's research showed that more journeys by scooter were instead of catching a bus or walking than to replace a car journey.