E-bike and E-scooter - ongoing issues and discussion (merged posts)

[whole diary]

[grahame]

Those on offer in 4 London Boroughs are limited to 15mph and require the hirer to have a car licence, not motorcycle licence.

I would suspect the car license is chosen because it's a commonly held license that requires you to know rules of the road and to have been passed as reasonably competent.  Fewer people hold motorcycle licenses, so to require one of those instead, though probably closer in skill needs to an e-scooter, would limit the market of possible renters.   I couldn't find stats for the numbers of licenses, but I did find a page telling me that motorcycle miles are about one hundredth of car miles.

[TaplowGreen]

Those on offer in 4 London Boroughs are limited to 15mph and require the hirer to have a car licence, not motorcycle licence.

I would suspect the car license is chosen because it's a commonly held license that requires you to know rules of the road and to have been passed as reasonably competent.  Fewer people hold motorcycle licenses, so to require one of those instead, though probably closer in skill needs to an e-scooter, would limit the market of possible renters.   I couldn't find stats for the numbers of licenses, but I did find a page telling me that motorcycle miles are about one hundredth of car miles.

It's because Category Q, which includes trial e-scooters, is included on a car license.

[Bmblbzzz]

It's also included on a motorcycle licence, according to that BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) story. It would be odd if it were not.

I agree with Broadgage on this, the relevant laws should be amended to allow all e-scooters to be used legally on roads, subject to the speed, weight and power limits applied to the hire scooters.

[Red Squirrel]

Helmets are not compulsory, but anyone choosing not to wear one clearly has little worth protecting in their head.

Voi quite assertively recommend that anyone hiring one of their e-scooters should wear a helmet. Of course it doesn't cost Voi much to do that, and could help their defence should a customer sustain a head injury and subsequently sue.

In reality, Voi's business model is all about convenience. Almost certainly most of their users don't possess a helmet of any kind. For those who do have one, it may not be very convenient to carry it around on the off-chance that they may need it.

I have seen a lot of people riding Voi scooters where I live in north-west Bristol. I can't remember seeing anyone wearing a helmet on one. Maybe this is in part due to the fact that there are few modern highways and extensive 20 mph speed limits in much of this area, making the roads somewhat safer for non-motorists.

At the end of the WECA^» (West of England Combined Authority - about) trial we'll presumably have statistics on rates of injury, including where crashes happened, who else was involved and what protective clothing the user was wearing. From these it will be possible to take a balanced view on how these machines should be regulated, without indulging in victim-blaming or culture war tropes.

[TaplowGreen]

A study of 248 people injured in Berlin revealed that 1 in 4 of those injured whilst riding scooters were admitted to hospital, 1 in 5 who came off were over the drink drive limit (of whom 31% sustained traumatic brain injuries), and only 1 in 100 were wearing a helmet.

The study concluded that helmets should be compulsory, there should be a minimum age limit of 18, a ban on alcohol no driving on pavements and strict adherence to traffic regulations.



Let's hope we take all that on board. Protecting one's brain is probably worth a little minor inconvenience.

[Red Squirrel]

Voi have the driving licence details of anyone who hires their scooters, and anyone riding one under the influence of alcohol will be treated in the same way as if they were driving any other vehicle, including fines, penalty points and bans.

Scooters can be ridden anywhere where it is legal to ride a bicycle.

As to the balance of risk versus convenience: It's complicated. It's worth noting, for example, that taxi drivers do not have to wear seatbelts while they are working, but must wear them when they are not. Small children may travel in taxis without car seats, but may not travel in other cars without one.

The only people I've seen wearing helmets on e-scooters have been riding illegal, privately-owned ones. If you own a scooter, clearly you use it in a different way - for door-to-door journeys - so wearing a helmet is more convenient because you don't have to carry it around with you when you change to a different mode of transport.

Chris Boardman says:

I understand why people wish to use [helmets or hi-vis]. But these actions seek to deal with an effect. I want to focus the debate on the cause, and campaign for things that will really make cycling safe. That is why I won’t promote high-vis and helmets – I won’t let the debate be drawn on to a topic that isn’t even in the top 10 things that will really keep people who want to cycle safe.

He's talking about cycling; Voi e-scooters, with their 25km/h speed restriction, are slower and presumably therefore safer. One of the safest countries in the world for cycling is The Netherlands, where helmets and hi-viz are almost unheard of.

[broadgage]

Those on offer in 4 London Boroughs are limited to 15mph and require the hirer to have a car licence, not motorcycle licence.

I would suspect the car license is chosen because it's a commonly held license that requires you to know rules of the road and to have been passed as reasonably competent.  Fewer people hold motorcycle licenses, so to require one of those instead, though probably closer in skill needs to an e-scooter, would limit the market of possible renters.   I couldn't find stats for the numbers of licenses, but I did find a page telling me that motorcycle miles are about one hundredth of car miles.

My suggestion was that NO LICENCE should be required to operate an E-scooter of limited power and speed.
The reference to a motorcycle licence and to a safety helmet was ONLY WRT^▸ (with regard to )  to scooters or E-bikes of greater speed and power than would be permitted without a licence.

I can understand E-scooter hire companies wanting a driving licence, as proof of identity, that is up to them but a licence to operate ones own scooter seems a bit silly when no licence is needed for an E-bike.

[broadgage]

A study of 248 people injured in Berlin revealed that 1 in 4 of those injured whilst riding scooters were admitted to hospital, 1 in 5 who came off were over the drink drive limit (of whom 31% sustained traumatic brain injuries), and only 1 in 100 were wearing a helmet.
The study concluded that helmets should be compulsory, there should be a minimum age limit of 18, a ban on alcohol no driving on pavements and strict adherence to traffic regulations.
Let's hope we take all that on board. Protecting one's brain is probably worth a little minor inconvenience.

A study by the BGGG* showed that 1 in 4 of those injured whilst walking were admitted to hospital. And that 1 in 5 pedestrians who fell over had exceeded the drink drive limit. (31 % of whom suffered traumatic brain injuries) and that negligible numbers of pedestrians were wearing helmets.
The study concluded that helmets should be compulsory for walking, that persons under 18 should not walk unless under supervision, and that alcohol should be banned.
It was further concluded that a life preserver should be worn if walking within 100 meters of open water.

*Broad Gage Green Group, affiliated to the BBTB and the P and S group.

[TaplowGreen]

A study of 248 people injured in Berlin revealed that 1 in 4 of those injured whilst riding scooters were admitted to hospital, 1 in 5 who came off were over the drink drive limit (of whom 31% sustained traumatic brain injuries), and only 1 in 100 were wearing a helmet.
The study concluded that helmets should be compulsory, there should be a minimum age limit of 18, a ban on alcohol no driving on pavements and strict adherence to traffic regulations.
Let's hope we take all that on board. Protecting one's brain is probably worth a little minor inconvenience.

A study by the BGGG* showed that 1 in 4 of those injured whilst walking were admitted to hospital. And that 1 in 5 pedestrians who fell over had exceeded the drink drive limit. (31 % of whom suffered traumatic brain injuries) and that negligible numbers of pedestrians were wearing helmets.
The study concluded that helmets should be compulsory for walking, that persons under 18 should not walk unless under supervision, and that alcohol should be banned.
It was further concluded that a life preserver should be worn if walking within 100 meters of open water.

*Broad Gage Green Group, affiliated to the BBTB and the P and S group.

P & S.......Port & Stilton?

Sounds like the former was started earlier than usual today!

[broadgage]

No port has been consumed, more of a winter drink in my view. This is the season for beer, and perhaps for a little gin.

[broadgage]

I rather liked a remark on another forum about encouraging green transport choices.

"So, to not drive, I will have to pay to learn to drive a car and obtain a car licence, before I am allowed to ride a scooter"

[froome]

I rather liked a remark on another forum about encouraging green transport choices.

"So, to not drive, I will have to pay to learn to drive a car and obtain a car licence, before I am allowed to ride a scooter"

This was an issue I was going to raise, as it affects me amongst others. I don't have a driving licence as I have no wish to drive. I'm not actually that interested in hiring an e-scooter either, but the whole issue of driving licences being needed where some form of ID is required is a common problem for me, and I feel it is actually a form of discrimination.

[Surrey 455]

I rather liked a remark on another forum about encouraging green transport choices.

"So, to not drive, I will have to pay to learn to drive a car and obtain a car licence, before I am allowed to ride a scooter"

Do you need a full licence or is a provisional sufficient?

[MVR S&T]

Our Beryl bike scheme in Bournemouth, says: Provisional licences are accepted, however paper licences are not.

[TonyK]

This was an issue I was going to raise, as it affects me amongst others. I don't have a driving licence as I have no wish to drive. I'm not actually that interested in hiring an e-scooter either, but the whole issue of driving licences being needed where some form of ID is required is a common problem for me, and I feel it is actually a form of discrimination.

I suppose it is. You could use your passport, I would imagine.