Revenue Protection Officer On Train Authority

[whole diary]

[bobm]

I'd be quite happy to only sit in my reserved seat if some of the actual byelaws were enforced, for example

7. Music, sound, advertising and carrying on a trade 
(1) Except with written permission from an Operator no person on the railway shall, to the annoyance of any person:    (i) sing; or (ii) use any instrument, article or equipment for the production or reproduction of sound.

10. Trains 
(1) No person shall enter through any train door until any person leaving by that door has passed through. 

[Zoe]

If I buy online from FGW^▸ (First Great Western)/GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) can you show me the link to these terms and conditions where it says I must sit in my reserved seat?

If you go through the booking process you get:

https://tickets.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/gw/en/tickettandc/W/W2T.aspx

That's what the FGW site says but I'm not sure that can override the NR^» (Network Rail - home page) terms and conditions of Advance tickets.  The VTEC site it clearly says the ticket is only valid in your reserved seat (in line with the NR conditions) so I'm not quite sure why the FGW site does not say that.

[JayMac]

However, a term, particularly one that can lead to a penalty, cannot be hidden. If you are not made aware of it then there is a contractual imbalance. When booking with FGW^▸ (First Great Western)/GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) you are not referred to T&Cs on the National Rail website.

Your ticket and the booking process does inform you however that travel is subject to the National Rail Conditions of Carriage. These merely states you must travel on your booked train, with no mention of booked seat.

I am however now more tempered toward it being possible to penalise someone on an unfavourable interpretation of the rules, regulations and legislation. I'm fairly sure though that no TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) would ever proceed to prosecution. How the legal courts will decide is an unknown. The court of public opinion on the other hand...

[Zoe]

However, a term, particularly one that can lead to a penalty, cannot be hidden. If you are not made aware of it then there is a contractual imbalance. When booking with FGW^▸ (First Great Western)/GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) you are not referred to T&Cs on the National Rail website.

Contractual imbalance would be a civil matter though I'd have thought so although you could have a case for compensation for the value of the ticket if you were not aware of the rule at the time of purchase, this would be separate to any criminal action taken against you for travelling without a valid ticket.  For a byelaw prosecution there doesn't have to be any intent.  If you were shown the NR^» (Network Rail - home page) terms and conditions and still refused to move or pay the Standard Anytime fare, it could also be taken as an intentionally travelling without a valid ticket and so liable for a Regulation of Railway Act prosecution.  I'm not sure a civil court finding you not liable for the Standard Anytime fare would prevent this.

If when buying the ticket, the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) clearly states that you must sit in your reserved seat then it could be seen as intentionally travelling without a valid ticket and if that was the case then no-one would have to advise you to move first for it to be an offence under the Regulation of Railway Act.

I agree that a prosecution is very unlikely but it's not something I'd want to risk a criminal record over.

[Rhydgaled]

That's what the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) site says but I'm not sure that can override the NR^» (Network Rail - home page) terms and conditions of Advance tickets.  The VTEC site it clearly says the ticket is only valid in your reserved seat (in line with the NR conditions) so I'm not quite sure why the FGW site does not say that.

One explanation might be that FirstGW's company policy is not to enforce that particular condition, but I've no idea whether that is the case. Also, I suppose that wouldn't cover suituations when one books a ticket for travel on, say, a VTEC service using the FirstGW site.

In all my years of travelling up and down the country using Advance tickets on most TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company), I can count on one hand the number of times I have actually sat in the reserved seat that I was given by the online booking system. Why? It wasn't where I wanted to sit because I couldn't choose where I wanted to sit. I have never once been challenged.

Thanks to East Coast (now Virgin East Coast) and now Virgin West Coast, I can now choose my seat when I book online. Even then, that's no guarantee I will sit there if I find there are noisy passengers nearby or there is plenty of space elsewhere in the carriage. I hope GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) introduce 'choose your seat' as it's a good system to have; especially with the reduction in First class seating.

Even if 'choose your seat' is available (which, I agree, is a good system) there may still be many reasons for not wanting to sit in the reserved seat, such as:

• The 'choose your seat' system refusing to actually let you choose your seat (on East Coast's site I've had it tell me the train is too full and it just reserves a random seat)
• Incorrect train formation (again, on East Coast, I once booked a seat on an IC225 only to find the set that actually turned up was an IC125 meaning (if I recall correctly) that the seat letter I'd reserved was allocated to a rear-facing seat instead of a forward-facing one)
• As noted earlier, a spillage (or worse) leaving the reserved seat in no condition to sit in
• As noted earlier, undesirable passengers in adjacent seats (or, conversely, friends seated elsewhere in the train)
• Better window-alignment (I forget whether East Coast's seat plan shows where the window pillars are, although trains should really be designed to avoid this being a problem in the first place)
• Missing your train (in the case of advance tickets, you would of course not be allowed to travel using the ticket unless the train was missed by the fault of the railway), last time I reserved a seat (thankfully not on an advance ticket) I missed the train due to a lengthy queue caused by roadworks
• The train has plenty of space and the reserved seat is already taken by another passenger

The terms and conditions of advance tickets require that you sit in the reserved seat shown on the ticket.  Would it not be the case that if you break this then you could be treated as not having a valid ticket and prosecuted under byelaw 18?  The same rule also says that you must travel in the class shown on the ticket and I don't think there would be much argument over a prosecution for sitting in First Class with a Standard Advance.

Also would there be any possibily of a Regulation of Railways Act prosecution if you were told that you are travelling without a valid ticket (due to not sitting in your reserved seat) and refused to immediately pay for a Standard Anytime Single?

Personally (and this is NOT official advice, just my opinion of what I think I might consider fair) I think that a passenger travelling on an Advance ticket who is found to be sitting in a seat other than the one they have reserved without good cause (see above) should be given the choice of:

• A. moving to their reserved seat or
• B. paying the difference between their Advance ticket and the cheapest single fare for the same journey stated on their Advance ticket (so, if an Off-Peak ticket is valid they should be allowed to purchase that rather than an Anytime) or for the leg of the journey provided by the current train (ie. before any changes onto other services).

10. Trains 
(1) No person shall enter through any train door until any person leaving by that door has passed through. 

Pedanticly, surely it is only possible to breach that regulation if both the passenger getting on and the one getting off are really skiny, or at least one of the passengers has a supernatural ability to walk right through solid objects (in this case the other passenger), but if we could do that we wouldn't need doors.

[Timmer]

Another reason why I think this 'rule' is unenforceable is because most TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) allow you to upgrade Advance tickets to First Class by paying the appropriate Weekend First supplement. If it was a rule from the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, it would have to include this easement that you may upgrade to First on Weekends meaning you don't have to take the seat reserved for you in Standard.

[basset44]

Hi All,
 After reading this thread, I beggining to wonder if I will be travelling on the trains in the future or is it now the time at 57 to think about a car?
Many years I have tried for leisure trips to choose the Train over the Bus and what used to bring the cost down was advance tickets. It has already been said that these are sometimes seats that you want to sit in and i have moved many times over the years.
Advance tickets seem nowawdays not to be so cheap and I have manily chosen the bus, may I suggest the OP^▸ (Original Poster / topic starter) goes and works for ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company))) where for many years you can buy and Advance ticket which no longer includes a seat reservation, so its first come first served!!
Basset

[grahame]

After reading this thread, I beggining to wonder if I will be travelling on the trains in the future or is it now the time at 57 to think about a car?

Many years I have tried for leisure trips to choose the Train over the Bus and what used to bring the cost down was advance tickets. It has already been said that these are sometimes seats that you want to sit in and i have moved many times over the years. ...

Whatever the strict interpretation of the rules, as currently applied there is significant realism and pragmatism in seating on advance tickets.  And I would suggest that First have a great deal to loose (such as your business!) and not much to gain by a rigid enforcement of specific seating, backed up by penalties and court cases.   

I would also suggest that even should they change the way this is done on the ground, the announcement would not come through someone who says he/she is a new recruit to the RPO role; bear in mind we have no proof of that claim.  Rather we would hear something from official channels or our established contacts, together with explanations of why the changes is needed / being done, and answers on places like Facebook from the First team would already be preparing the way by explaining why correct seating is necessary in general.

[Timmer]

Advance tickets seem nowawdays not to be so cheap and I have manily chosen the bus, may I suggest the OP^▸ (Original Poster / topic starter) goes and works for ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company))) where for many years you can buy and Advance ticket which no longer includes a seat reservation, so its first come first served!!
Basset

Intereseting point you make about Advance tickets not being so cheap Basset. There are still very cheap Advance tickets available but you have to get in very quick at the outset of when they become available 12 weeks out. That's a long way out from knowing you are definately going to travel in many situations in order to get the cheapest tickets. From what I can see it appears quotas have been reduced on many services, particularly trains that are now much busier then they once were, where TOCs don't need to sell seats so cheaply.

It is getting to the point where it is better value to buy off-peak/super off-peak tickets for a few quid more, gaining flexability as to when you travel and being able to make a last minute decision to travel somewhere rather than having to plan so far in advance. Add to this split ticketing on many routes and the saving coupled with lack of flexability makes Advance tickets in some cases not such a good deal.

[didcotdean]

The only operator I have encountered that went in for regular strict interpretation of requiring the reserved seat to be used on an advance was way back with GNER^▸ (Great North Eastern Railways).

However, sitting in someone else's reserved seat who is due to get on further down the line because you just don't like your own does strike me as a bit antisocial - especially if when the person turns up there is a subsequent attempt to reclaim the original abandoned seat on a packed train. I have witnessed this, being that person at the later stop.

[Fourbee]

And I would suggest that First have a great deal to loose (such as your business!) and not much to gain by a rigid enforcement of specific seating, backed up by penalties and court cases.   

I think that's the primary reason they (and other TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company)) don't bother. I've not sat in my reserved seat for a number of reasons off Rhydgaled's list previously posted. I'd be minded to put forward a case for "specific train" on advances for all TOCs, but no seat reservation included as basset44 mentioned is the case on ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC)) (and also SWT^▸ (South West Trains)).

Reservations can increase the dwell time at stations as people hunt for their seat, chuck people out etc. and block the aisle leading to a queue of people outside the door onto the platform. The tall headrests also contribute to this where it is difficult to see if a seat is vacant (for those without reservations) and TOCs which use an electronic/scrolling display.

Despite having benefited enourmously from reservations on very full trains in the past, I would be quite happy to see seat reservations abolished or at least parred down to small number of seats that groups/mobility impaired could use or just one coach, say.

[grahame]

Despite having benefited enourmously from reservations on very full trains in the past, I would be quite happy to see seat reservations abolished or at least parred down to small number of seats that groups/mobility impaired could use or just one coach, say.

The very high proportion of unused reserved seats - to a very great extent because they're freely and easily available to people on flexible tickets and there's no cost in reserving "just in case" on the busiest of a number of trains you might travel on - has brought the system a degree of disrespect and abuse.

I wonder is a system which had advanced tickets allocated by train - as suggested above - and reservations available for advanced and other ticket holders at (say) one pound per journey would clean the whole system up. It would cut out huge numbers of not-taken-up reservations, it would cut out the wrong-seat penalties suggested by Penzance-Paddington, it would help train turn around in those trains that still use paper tickets on seats, it would provide for higher seat occupancy and quicker loading, and having paid those who did have reservations would be much more likely to take their chosen seat unless there was good cause not to.

[Tim]

However, as TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) use advance tickets to regulate passenger loadings, I can imagine that sitting in ANY other seat than the one reserved on an Advance ticket would be a breach of the ticket validity.

This is a worrying attitude indeed.  The kind of thing you might expect from some of the more useless Police Community Support Officers.

You have specific legal powers.  I suggest that FGW^▸ (First Great Western)'s training should focus on explaining what they are rather and drumming home the message that ticket validity depends on what the rules say rather than what an individual "imagines".  

I've had similar issues with station ticket office staff refusing to sell me a "split ticket".  The NCoC say it is allowed and they can't point to anything that countermands or even contradicts that, but they have the feeling that it isn't on and so use their gut feeling rather than the rules to decide on ticket validity.

 

[basset44]

Hi Timmer,
Yes this is very true about other choices, many times I have seen Advance tickets costing more then Off peak and other tickets and no flexibility.
What does concern me and I belive thanks to the knowledge I have gained from reading forums like this is the general cost of a walk up ticket, without splitting and knowing what to ask for.
I give you this example, I arrived back at London Heathrow on Monday the 7th and cleared Boarder control and my baggage was collected by 15.00. I had a return part of a National Express ticket but the bus was not leaving till 17.10.
Durring the flight I broke a tooth and fearing further problems I thought I just get back to Cardiff asap. So off I set for Hayes & Harlington using my Oyster^▸ (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services) card.
I arrived at about 15.40, found the ticket office which had a sign saying closed, I found a member of Staff on the platform and asked if the ticket office was reopening, He said it should be open but the person was on a break and should reopen by 16.00.
I explained that i wanted to buy a ticket to Cardiff but split it at Swindon, fair play he was helpfull and entered the details of the H&H to Swindon in the machine and selected a ticket which I paid for with card. He told me to buy the other ticket at Swindon.
I noticed the 15.44 Oxford was running late and jumped on that, only whilst on the train did I notice the ticket was a ^ 19.10 Supper Off peak Single, I was a bit concerned if this was the correct ticket.
At Reading I disembarked and went to the information counter on the over bridge noticing there was a Swansea train due in about 7 minutes. Was directed down to the ticket office at the rear of the Station, at the gate line I was told the office was closed and to catch the train and to buy the ticket onboard.
I boarded the train and as soon as it started to leave Reading I left my case and proceeded to walk down 4 carriages to find the Guard, I explained to the Guard what had happened and bought a further single from Swindon to Cardiff for ^25.20 after showing the ticket i already hard which they wrote the date on.
Went back to my case and found a seat , no further ticket checks were made, on this journey.
What I found out after returning home a looking at the web site is my first ticket was not valid.
My concern was to get home resonably cheaply and off course lawfully, it would appear that train travel might become too complex in the future.
Basset

[Tim]

The very high proportion of unused reserved seats - to a very great extent because they're freely and easily available to people on flexible tickets and there's no cost in reserving "just in case" on the busiest of a number of trains you might travel on - has brought the system a degree of disrespect and abuse.

I wonder is a system which had advanced tickets allocated by train - as suggested above - and reservations available for advanced and other ticket holders at (say) one pound per journey would clean the whole system up. It would cut out huge numbers of not-taken-up reservations, it would cut out the wrong-seat penalties suggested by Penzance-Paddington, it would help train turn around in those trains that still use paper tickets on seats, it would provide for higher seat occupancy and quicker loading, and having paid those who did have reservations would be much more likely to take their chosen seat unless there was good cause not to.

It would also save a huge amount of time putting out reservations that will not be used.  

Isn't that what BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) did?  made a small charge for reservations.  I'd certainly be in favour of getting rid of the free reservation for walk-up fares.  Keep the reservation fee small (perhaps charge it per transaction rather than per group so as to encourage groups to reserve but individuals not to).