First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets

[whole diary]

[grahame]

Section 5 of ROR Act 1889 makes this quite clear. It states that "(1)

Every passenger by a railway shall, on request by an officer or servant of a railway company, either produce, and if so requested deliver up, a ticket showing that his fare is paid, or pay his fare from the place whence he started".

I'm quite happy (and want) to pay when asked, and train managers usually come around to check tickets and collect fares anyway. Not sure how this says I can't get onto a train and pay in cash if there's no cash facility at the station - in fact it says nothing about having to buy from a TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) or booking office  at all - just that you need to buy a ticket or produce one when asked.

If you was in a shop which only accepted card payment, would you just take the product without paying?

No - but there's no suggestion of travelling without paying, so I'm not sure of your point.

As there's some doubt (though your position does appear to be the minority one, Padddington-Penzance) I thought I would get the official GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) view:



As that doesn't appear to back you up, please do send me details of your reporting channel in GWR (as previously requested) so that we can clarify this for everyone.  A considerable proportion of fares at Melksham are paid on the train in cash, and we need to remove any seed of doubt (in your mind as a potential RPO) as to whether this is still allowed.  I want to nip in the bud any danger of customers who are following the rules as tweeted and generally understood finding something different one day, to the extent they are put off using the train again.

[Penzance-Paddington]

It seems that it is allowed in these circumstances. I do apologise. However, if a TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) accepts cash and cards, you do need to buy a ticket or have a pre-bought ticket before passing beyond it.

[JayMac]

As I stated earlier, if there is a closed ticket office, and no TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) or Permit To Travel machines, then customers can buy their ticket on-board the train.

And if that train is DOO^▸ (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) and the destination only has a TVM or nothing at all?

[Adelante_CCT]

If the ticket machine only accepts one method of payment i.e. card and if you wish to pay with cash, then it is still an opportunity to pay and passing it without a valid ticket is an offence.

And what if you're a child, unless the laws have changed I didn't think it was possible to have a debit/credit card until 16/18. Where are they suppose to get a ticket from if they only have cash on them?

[Brucey]

It seems that it is allowed in these circumstances. I do apologise. However, if a TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) accepts cash and cards, you do need to buy a ticket or have a pre-bought ticket before passing beyond it.

How about if I want to pay with a Rail Travel Voucher or Rail Warrant, what should I do then?

[Richard Fairhurst]

Penzance-Paddington, you have previously posted in a way that strongly suggests you are posting here at least semi-officially as a representative of GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway):

We are also here to provide customer service and are representatives of the company. I look forward to welcoming you on one of my services soon.

Frankly, I smell bullsh*t. Either you are an adolescent trainspotter pretending to be someone you're not (shades of 'maryfgw'), or you are greatly overreaching your competence by providing bogus advice to people who, it's clear, know a whole bunch more than you do. GWR has a lot of really dedicated, skilled on-train staff and it slightly horrifies me to think that their dedication is being tarred on here by your clumsy postings.

Could one of the real GWR employees who read this forum perhaps quietly make enquiries and find out if any alleged trainees are in fact posting here?

[ChrisB]

He's digging himself a big hole. If he's a trainee, these posts are not going to impress his employer. I suspect however, he's still studying (see very early posts where he asks us questions), and is yet to pass/join.

Penzance-Paddington...ARE you yet an actual GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) employee? Coz you're not giving correct information

[grahame]

It seems that it is allowed in these circumstances. I do apologise.

Thank you.

I do still worry.  This has taken considerable discussion to resolve in the theoretic environment of the forum, and I wonder what the outcome would have been had I or someone else joined a train you were revenue protecting "in these circumstances" - or with a rail warrant or vouchers, or indeed other circumstances which remain open in this thread.  I share other's concerns at the approach and knowledge level you demonstrate (but then these things can be taught/learned); in combination with the staff social media guidelines, these matters suggest a radical change in direction for GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) flagged in a very surprising way, or that something's not as we have been told.  For that reason, I urge you to answer my previous requests for further information on your reportage channel (in a personal message or email is fine) which have previously gone unanswered.

[PhilWakely]

Here's an interesting scenario that my daughter has apparently, in the last few minutes, been caught up in............

Having been off work for a number of years due to a medical episode, she has at long last been past fit to work and got herself a part-time job. This requires her to catch the busiest train of the day, 0813 PIN-EXC. The TM^‡(resolve) usually plants himself in the rear cab and stays there, except for door and platform duties - leaving the gateline staff at EXC to take any unpaid fares.

This morning, daughter goes to the TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) at PIN, to find a 'exact fare only, no card payments' message on the screen. Fine, you say, except her fare with a railcard is ^1.85 - and the TVM is rejecting all coins with a lower than 10p demomination. It is one of the sensible machines that returns all coins if you have paid too much (eg 2x^1 in this scenario), rather than issue a ^1.85 ticket and not give change!

So, she is unable to buy her ticket from a 'working' TVM and unable to see the TM. There must have been another TVM further down the line that was not working as the queue at the gateline was fairly long. When it was her turn to speak to the person on the gate, he was adamant her railcard (a Disabled Persons one) was not valid on that train and that she had ample opportunity to pay the full ^2.80 fare, so wanted to issue a penalty fare. She got quite worried by this attitude (and given her medical condition, that was not surprising), but it was only when a colleague of the member of staff pointed out that the Disabled Persons Railcard WAS valid that she was allowed through having paid her ^1.85

[grahame]

There must have been another TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) further down the line that was not working as the queue at the gateline was fairly long.

from Journey check:

Digby & Sowton: Ticket Vending Machine problem
The ticket vending machines are out of order at Digby & Sowton station.
Additional Information
Please purchase tickets at the ticket office or at the first available opportunity to do so where no other means of purchasing tickets is available at the station.

I am 110% in favour robust revenue collection where people are deliberately avoiding the opportunity to pay. But that should not come at a price of causing concern / upset / strong-challenging people who are going about their travel lawfully.

Rail industry rules are complex and hard to understand - even for staff and wannabe staff, it seems.  But those are the rules the industry has come up with, and they really should have their own training and systems in order, rather that getting it wrong and then having it corrected later.   If the answer is "but the rules are too complex and there are bound to be mistakes",  then perhaps the rules or the training should be questioned, and not the passenger - especially the passenger who's actually following the rules!

We need to be careful in discussing individual cases - however, I hope your daughter is not put off travel by train ...

[ChrisB]

Always take a photo with your mobile of the message on the TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) in these circumstsnces to protect oneself

[BandHcommuter]

Many GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) train managers willingly sell me tickets on the train, even when I've boarded at a station where the ticket office is open. In fact some positively encourage it. Are they wrong to do this? Should they be telling me that I am at risk of prosecution?

[grahame]

Always take a photo with your mobile of the message on the TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) in these circumstsnces to protect oneself

Yes, but why should you have to??

[JayMac]

Always take a photo with your mobile of the message on the TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) in these circumstsnces to protect oneself

Yes, but why should you have to??

Because there are people like Penzance-Paddington working for GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway).

[PhilWakely]

Always take a photo with your mobile of the message on the TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) in these circumstsnces to protect oneself

How do you take a photo of the machine rejecting all of certain coins? In the example this morning, 'exact fare only in cash', fare (sic) enough and you could happily pay multiples of 10p, for a fare of ^2.80, but impossible to pay with coins of lower denominations to cover a fare of ^1.85.