First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets

[whole diary]

[Penzance-Paddington]

... that is, in my understanding, a simplification of the situation or things have changed.  I understood, for example, that it's all right to pass a TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) that only accepts credit cards if you're paying with cash on the train, and that if you pass by a ticket office you can only be committing an offence if it's open.    Sorry to be a bit of a pedant, but as written I believe your statement says that people are guilty of an offence in some circumstance when they're not, and I think that's a dangerous thing for someone who's hoping to become an RPO to assume.

 Good Evening Grahame. Most major stations do accept cash and card payments, cash and cards can also be used at ticket offices. If you wish to pay with your card at a cash only machine, there may be cash machines at or close by the station. However don't venture any further into the station to find one, as doing so would be passing an opportunity to pay. You can find out more about station facilities at www.nationalrail.co.uk. I hope you find this helpful.

[ellendune]

Good Evening Grahame. Most major stations do accept cash and card payments, cash and cards can also be used at ticket offices. If you wish to pay with your card at a cash only machine, there may be cash machines at or close by the station. However don't venture any further into the station to find one, as doing so would be passing an opportunity to pay. You can find out more about station facilities at www.nationalrail.co.uk. I hope you find this helpful.

This seems to assume that everyone joins a train at a major station which is far from the situation.  There is no ticket office at Melksham for example and the ticket machine only accepts cards not cash. 

The ticket office at say Nailsea & Backwell or Thatcham are only part time and so are often closed. 

Forgive me but your world does seem to be very black and white.  Most of us live in a world where things are not so clear and uncomplicated. 

[Penzance-Paddington]

Of course there are non-major stations Ellen, and most of those do have some for of ticket purchasing facilities of permit to travel machines. If the ticket office is closed and there are NO ticket vending machines or permit to travel machines at the station where customers are travelling from, then they may buy their ticket at the first opportunity on-board the train. However, if a passenger fails to do this and passes the ticket office at the station on arriving at their destination, this could result in a RORA^▸ (Regulation of Railways Act 1889) prosecution as it is basically a slam-dunk opportunity. You can check the methods of payment at the origin station before hand with customer services if you are travelling with GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) by calling  0345 7000 125.

[John R]

Do TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company)'s lobby hard for punishments?

Yes, and rightly so! Fare evasion cost the railways a substancial amount every year. Those who think it's alright to pass a ticket vending machine or ticket office without a valid ticket are committing an offence and the punishment should be just as serious as any other offence.

Firstly, being somewhat pedantic, I don't believe that thinking it's alright to pass a TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) without a ticket is an offence. It might be if one actually does so, but the mere thought cannot be an offence.

Secondly, when you say the punishment should be just as serious as any other offence, again, an accurate interpretation of those words means you think the punishment should be as serious as murder.

Pedantic maybe, but if you are to be an RPO, I suggest you do need to be a little careful, else you could very soon find yourself bringing your employer into a media related situation which they would prefer not to be.  Your confusion that some machines are cash only (when indeed the reverse is true - many are card only) demonstrates that you don't yet have a good grasp of some of the basics of your job. And I really do worry that you don't have the right attitude that GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) is looking for in a prospective RPO.

[John R]

Of course there are non-major stations Ellen, and most of those do have some for of ticket purchasing facilities of permit to travel machines. If the ticket office is closed and there are NO ticket vending machines or permit to travel machines at the station where customers are travelling from, then they may buy their ticket at the first opportunity on-board the train. However, if a passenger fails to do this and passes the ticket office at the station on arriving at their destination, this could result in a RORA^▸ (Regulation of Railways Act 1889) prosecution as it is basically a slam-dunk opportunity. You can check the methods of payment at the origin station before hand with customer services if you are travelling with GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) by calling  0345 7000 125.

Not true - if there is a TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) machine which only accepts cards then you are entitled to buy on board.  As to then adding the scenario that someone passes the ticket office at the arrival station, no-one has made any comment about this before, so you're just making this up as you go along to prove why someone would be fare dodging.

Finally, how many passengers do you expect to phone up before making a journey? More are likely to check online - the details for NLS on National Rail do say there is a TVM, but don't specify that it is card only, so doesn't give the correct information pertinent to this discussion. How would you deal with someone in that situation?  (It also says trolleys are available - really?)

[grahame]

... that is, in my understanding, a simplification of the situation or things have changed.  I understood, for example, that it's all right to pass a TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) that only accepts credit cards if you're paying with cash on the train, and that if you pass by a ticket office you can only be committing an offence if it's open.    Sorry to be a bit of a pedant, but as written I believe your statement says that people are guilty of an offence in some circumstance when they're not, and I think that's a dangerous thing for someone who's hoping to become an RPO to assume.

 Good Evening Grahame. Most major stations do accept cash and card payments, cash and cards can also be used at ticket offices. If you wish to pay with your card at a cash only machine, there may be cash machines at or close by the station. However don't venture any further into the station to find one, as doing so would be passing an opportunity to pay. You can find out more about station facilities at www.nationalrail.co.uk. I hope you find this helpful.

I find it answers a different question to the one I asked you ...

You asserted that "Those who think it's alright to pass a ticket vending machine or ticket office without a valid ticket are committing an offence" and I suggested that's not always the case, asking you about TVMs which don't accept cash, and closed ticket offices.

If it is indeed an offence to pass a TVM that only accepts cards, then pay on the train in cash, please tell me where this rule is written down. If it is not an offence, then please amend your statement to tell the full story rather than signalling guilt in an innocent situation.

It's  a serious issue as we've just had a TVM installed at our local station - cards only - and I wasn't aware that it's now an offence to get on the train and buy a ticket with cash from the train manager - something I had intended to do tomorrow as I travel from Melksham to Chippenham.  If I can't buy with cash any more, perhaps I should take the bus, which is slower but does accept cash.

[Penzance-Paddington]

As I stated earlier, if there is a closed ticket office, and no TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) or Permit To Travel machines, then customers can buy their ticket on-board the train. If the ticket machine only accepts one method of payment i.e. card and if you wish to pay with cash, then it is still an opportunity to pay and passing it without a valid ticket is an offence.

[paul7575]

...If the ticket machine only accepts one method of payment i.e. card and if you wish to pay with cash, then it is still an opportunity to pay and passing it without a valid ticket is an offence.

It isn't yet compulsory to carry both cards and cash in this country.  If you only have the opposite to what the machine accepts it cannot be an opportunity to pay.

Paul

[grahame]

As I stated earlier, if there is a closed ticket office, and no TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) or Permit To Travel machines, then customers can buy their ticket on-board the train. If the ticket machine only accepts one method of payment i.e. card and if you wish to pay with cash, then it is still an opportunity to pay and passing it without a valid ticket is an offence.

So it is no longer allowable to pay cash to travel by train from Melksham then?   Ouch!   Please quote your references as this is something we need to take up with GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) officially if you're right (which I don't think you are).

[ellendune]

As I stated earlier, if there is a closed ticket office, and no TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) or Permit To Travel machines, then customers can buy their ticket on-board the train. If the ticket machine only accepts one method of payment i.e. card and if you wish to pay with cash, then it is still an opportunity to pay and passing it without a valid ticket is an offence.

Grahame. It looks like you better take the bus tomorrow - we have obviously been reading the National Conditions of Carriage wrongly along with all those RPOs and TMs^‡(resolve) that have been allowing you and others to pay cash on the train. I think we should start a petition to GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) to get the conditions changed to where everyone else had assumed they were.  

On the other had rather than Penzance-Paddington being the only one in step, perhaps he is the only one out of step.

As Cromwell once said in a letter to the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland: "I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be mistaken."  

[Penzance-Paddington]

It is possible that TMs^‡(resolve) may have used some discretion in Grahame's cases. May I ask Grahame, do you pass any banks on the way to Melksham station? If so, you could always transfer the money you was going to pay with into your bank and then use your card to pay. Alternatively, you could buy a season ticket - it may make your journeys easier!

[ellendune]

It is possible that TMs^‡(resolve) may have used some discretion in Grahame's cases. May I ask Grahame, do you pass any banks on the way to Melksham station? If so, you could always transfer the money you was going to pay with into your bank and then use your card to pay. Alternatively, you could buy a season ticket - it may make your journeys easier!

If you think you are right please will you provide the reference so that it can be taken up with GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway).

Alternatively could someone from GWR who posts here please give us the official line. 

[JayMac]

It is possible that TMs^‡(resolve) may have used some discretion in Grahame's cases. May I ask Grahame, do you pass any banks on the way to Melksham station? If so, you could always transfer the money you was going to pay with into your bank and then use your card to pay. Alternatively, you could buy a season ticket - it may make your journeys easier!

Possibly one of the stupidest posts ever made on this forum.

[grahame]

It is possible that TMs^‡(resolve) may have used some discretion in Grahame's cases. May I ask Grahame, do you pass any banks on the way to Melksham station? If so, you could always transfer the money you was going to pay with into your bank and then use your card to pay. Alternatively, you could buy a season ticket - it may make your journeys easier!

I would be disinclined to buy a season ticket for tomorrow's journey.  It's a one off journey; I'm going to meet my MP^▸ (Member of Parliament) (to talk about making it easier for people to use trains and buses!), and people would talk if I did that so frequently as to be able to justify a season  

The idea of going to a bank on the way to the station ... I suppose I could do so if travelling in the middle of the day, and in best health.  At present that would mean catching the bus, which does go past the bank ... now - do I ask the bus driver to wait while I nip in and deposit, or drop back to the following hourly bus?

I really don't want to rely on discression - I would like to get this sorted out.  With discretion, someone, some day, is going to get the rule book thrown at them - so - PLEASE - quote your sources.   I think you're wrong. Which rule / bylaw is the one that I've been allowed to break, or perhaps we should elevate this to your GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) trainer / manager for clarification?  Please let me know who that would be by personal message.

[Penzance-Paddington]

Section 5 of ROR Act 1889 makes this quite clear. It states that "(1)

Every passenger by a railway shall, on request by an officer or servant of a railway company, either produce, and if so requested deliver up, a ticket showing that his fare is paid, or pay his fare from the place whence he started".


If you was in a shop which only accepted card payment, would you just take the product without paying?