Strike action - what does it actually achieve?

[whole diary]

[a-driver]

It's not the tube drivers fault that nurses, firefighters etc are underpaid.  Blame the government for not treating them fairly.  There's nothing stopping anyone joining a union and standing up for better pay and conditions. 
So many people are quick to jump to the level of pay.  Conditions are far more important and valuable than the basic salary

[ChrisB]

That's why the RMT^▸ (National Union of Rail, Maritime & Transport Workers) have requested a 34 hour 4day week for that ^50,000 then? Right.

Sorry, that's seriously overpaid/hour

[Red Squirrel]

There's an old adage that you don't get what you deserve, you get what you can negotiate.

Strong unions and weak management lead to higher pay and better conditions - up to a point. I'm sure the print workers felt pretty smug, pre-Wapping, as did the miners after the three-day week. The danger is that when all this comes to a head - which from a historical perspective seems likely - then the railway, and those who use it and work on it, will be much worse off.

And I rather suspect that when that day comes, Lord Cash of Watford won't care one little bit.

[chrisr_75]

It's not the tube drivers fault that nurses, firefighters etc are underpaid.  Blame the government for not treating them fairly.  There's nothing stopping anyone joining a union and standing up for better pay and conditions. 
So many people are quick to jump to the level of pay.  Conditions are far more important and valuable than the basic salary

Ok, let them have their 34 hour working week, 8 weeks paid holiday with no night shifts, but lets drop the salary to something more sensible, perhaps around the national (London weighted, of course) average for a semi skilled operative, would that be ok? No, didn't think so...

Once the technology is tested, approved and in place for driverless trains (it is getting close even for autonomous road vehicles, which is a considerably more complex undertaking...), then that is when strikes and unions are simply ignored and the redundancies can begin - these people should just accept the cushy number they've got now and prepare themselves for a time in the not so far off future when their jobs no longer exist.

Is working a couple of nights a month really that much worse than a 4am booking on time or a 2am booking off time?!

[a-driver]

What about commercial airline pilots then?  a computer can fly a plane, land it and take off yet they earn ^100k.  Are they overpaid? 

Train driving is a skilled profession.  We're not paid for what we do, we are paid for what we know and the risks involved.  Less than 3% of people who apply for a train drivers role will actually pass the initial assessments.
There will never be totally driverless trains on the Underground network.  A computer will never see passengers trapped in a door before they're dragged under a train, a computer will never be able to fix faults on trains, will never be able to deal with out-of course situations like signal failures, will never be able to safely de-train passengers in a tunnel, will never be able to spot potential track defects before they become a major incident./
If an emergency occurs on a driverless train and a passenger pulls the emergency alarm, what happens?  does the train stop automatically or keep going? 


Completely aside from the tube driver discussion though.  The average London salary is ^34k.  To get on the house market in London, first time buyers need to have an annual salary of ^77k a year.  House prices in London are predicted to rise by 30% over the next 5 years.  How is our NHS going to attract the best nursing staff in London if their salary means they can't afford to live in London?  This is why they should be fighting for their pay and conditions now. 

[ChrisB]

will never be able to fix faults on trains

They don't now - simply detrain & take it out of service. A computer & station staff can do that.

will never be able to deal with out-of course situations like signal failures

Drivers don't fix them either. They wait for instructions from Control & either detrain & remove in the oppo direction or simply wait until fixed. A computer can do that.

will never be able to safely de-train passengers in a tunnel

Drivers do get involved, but never on their own unless a total emergency - otherwise they await emergency services & other staff first.

will never be able to spot potential track defects before they become a major incident.

True enough. That and looking for stuff trapped in doors. So, some might suggest (not I) that they're glorified look-outs. Pretty much what Victoria Line drivers do now. Oh, and push the "start" button.

If an emergency occurs on a driverless train and a passenger pulls the emergency alarm, what happens?  does the train stop automatically or keep going?

As now, moves to next station in order to obtain easy assistance.

[chrisr_75]

What about commercial airline pilots then?  a computer can fly a plane, land it and take off yet they earn ^100k.  Are they overpaid? 

Train driving is a skilled profession.  We're not paid for what we do, we are paid for what we know and the risks involved.  Less than 3% of people who apply for a train drivers role will actually pass the initial assessments.
There will never be totally driverless trains on the Underground network.  A computer will never see passengers trapped in a door before they're dragged under a train, a computer will never be able to fix faults on trains, will never be able to deal with out-of course situations like signal failures, will never be able to safely de-train passengers in a tunnel, will never be able to spot potential track defects before they become a major incident./
If an emergency occurs on a driverless train and a passenger pulls the emergency alarm, what happens?  does the train stop automatically or keep going? 


Completely aside from the tube driver discussion though.  The average London salary is ^34k.  To get on the house market in London, first time buyers need to have an annual salary of ^77k a year.  House prices in London are predicted to rise by 30% over the next 5 years.  How is our NHS going to attract the best nursing staff in London if their salary means they can't afford to live in London?  This is why they should be fighting for their pay and conditions now. 

Yes, a computer can fly a plane, computers can do most things, but airline pilots are required to have in depth knowledge of relevant aspects of physics & maths, principles of flight, navigation, meteorology, ability to process information in 3 (well, 4 really) dimensions, a minutely detailed knowledge of a machine some orders of magnitude more complex than a train - have you not seen typical flight deck instrumentation and/or the inside of an avionics bay compared with a train drivers controls?! And if something does go wrong in the air, you have to have the knowledge & skill to overcome that issue calmly and rationally, you're effectively alone. You can't just pull up at the next signal and phone someone for help with everyone sat behind you safe and sound. To compare airline pilots with train drivers is, has and always will be a ridiculous comparison.

To illustrate, I would draw your attention to some of the many videos available on youtube taken from the flight deck jump seat during bad weather manual landings, or from manual landings at difficult airports such as Funchal, Hong Kong Kai Tak, Toncontin - you will clearly see how and why airline pilots earn their money.

And besides, it's generally only Captains at airlines such as BA^» (British Airways - about) that break into the 6 figure salaries, to get to that level you need in the order of 1500+ hours on type. The rest are on the sorts of figures being paid to train drivers.

I would also be interested, using you arguments against driverless trains, as to how you can explain why the DLR^▸ (Docklands Light Railway) has such a good safety record - someone recently posted the incidents to date on that computer controlled railway, and the only collisions between trains occurred when a human was at the controls of one of the vehicles involved.

[didcotdean]

There are automated trains already on the Paris Metro, including Line 1, one of the oldest (and one of the busiest) lines on the system. These are 100% driverless apart from a few extra trains deployed at peak time. It enabled them to run 38 trains an hour, and incidentally cut staff by about five-sixths. They are acting as advisers to TfL^» (Transport for London - about).

The trains are driven from a central control point, to which any passenger alarms are directed.

[a-driver]

There's actually been a number of fatalities on the DLR^▸ (Docklands Light Railway), whilst information is not available for all them to determine fault two made the press.  One whereby the operator was prosecuted for a serious health and safety offence after someone was pushed onto the tracks and was not picked up by CCTV^▸ (Closed Circuit Tele Vision).  The most recent being a young lady who had a fit and fell off the platform was then struck by a DLR train 12 seconds later.

The statement that we "just pull up to the next signal and phone someone for help" just goes to show how little you know about the role and requirements of a driver.   

[chrisr_75]

The statement that we "just pull up to the next signal and phone someone for help" just goes to show how little you know about the role and requirements of a driver.   

That comment was making the point that an airline pilot simply does not have the option of stopping and sorting out whatever issue has arisen, whereas a train driver can bring a train to a stop in order to buy time to address any issue that may have arisen en route.

Thanks, but I do know enough about driving trains to know that, however vehemently the unions and those in that position like to dress it up, it really isn't the proverbial rocket science. I fully appreciate it is not the simple button pressing many of the general public assume it to be, but it really cannot be compared with flying a commercial airliner.

A distinction must also be made between metro type trains, e.g. London Underground, and mainline type service - two very different environments which I think you are getting a little confused - this thread was primarily about the LUL^▸ (London Underground Ltd) strikes, not FGW^▸ (First Great Western) or any other mainline operator.

I seem to recall that, quite recently, 2 men were struck by an Underground train at Stockwell - the presence of a 'driver' didn't do them an awful lot of good did it?

[a-driver]

The statement that we "just pull up to the next signal and phone someone for help" just goes to show how little you know about the role and requirements of a driver.   

That comment was making the point that an airline pilot simply does not have the option of stopping and sorting out whatever issue has arisen, whereas a train driver can bring a train to a stop in order to buy time to address any issue that may have arisen en route.

I'd disagree with that.

Thanks, but I do know enough about driving trains to know that, however vehemently the unions and those in that position like to dress it up, it really isn't the proverbial rocket science. I fully appreciate it is not the simple button pressing many of the general public assume it to be, but it really cannot be compared with flying a commercial airliner.

Apologise I didn't realise you are or were a mainline qualified train driver.  Out of interest, freight or passenger side?
 

A distinction must also be made between metro type trains, e.g. London Underground, and mainline type service - two very different environments which I think you are getting a little confused - this thread was primarily about the LUL^▸ (London Underground Ltd) strikes, not FGW^▸ (First Great Western) or any other mainline operator.

That is probably true.  And, looking at the subject of this thread we are going way off on a tangent and we're never going to see eye to eye!   

I seem to recall that, quite recently, 2 men were struck by an Underground train at Stockwell - the presence of a 'driver' didn't do them an awful lot of good did it?

   

Nope, but there was at least a driver and platform staff present to assist passengers to evacuating the station safely.   

[IndustryInsider]

LUL^▸ (London Underground Ltd) strike action from Tuesday and Thursday evenings this week now called off after the remaining three unions involved have suspended their action pending further talks.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/road-and-rail-transport/11820468/Tube-strikes-this-week.html

[ChrisB]

Postponed to 8 & 10 Sept. night tube due to start on 12th.

No pressure then