Traincrew Shortages

[whole diary]

[John R]

Fine, but I think the point is, that if you do choose to work in one of those public services, and then turn around and decide not to work when asked because of industrial action, don't expect the public to have too much sympathy for you. Because in most cases they won't...

Outside the public sector, the whole concept of strike action appears to belong to a different generation. One could have a long discussion as to why that is, but underlying it must be a greater degree of confidence that the employer won't just turn around and get someone else to do the job.




 

[ellendune]

Fine, but I think the point is, that if you do choose to work in one of those public services, and then turn around and decide not to work when asked because of industrial action, don't expect the public to have too much sympathy for you. Because in most cases they won't...

... because you decide not to work on your rest day?  What kind of society do we live in?  Most other organisations offering services at weekends etc. include this in their contracts of employment rather than relying on their staff to work their rest days. 

Outside the public sector, the whole concept of strike action appears to belong to a different generation. One could have a long discussion as to why that is, but underlying it must be a greater degree of confidence that the employer won't just turn around and get someone else to do the job.

... there and I thought First Group was a private sector company.  Clearly I was mistaken.  I wonder if their shareholders know?

[LiskeardRich]

Fine, but I think the point is, that if you do choose to work in one of those public services, and then turn around and decide not to work when asked because of industrial action, don't expect the public to have too much sympathy for you. Because in most cases they won't...

... because you decide not to work on your rest day?  What kind of society do we live in?  Most other organisations offering services at weekends etc. include this in their contracts of employment rather than relying on their staff to work their rest days. 

Outside the public sector, the whole concept of strike action appears to belong to a different generation. One could have a long discussion as to why that is, but underlying it must be a greater degree of confidence that the employer won't just turn around and get someone else to do the job.

... there and I thought First Group was a private sector company.  Clearly I was mistaken.  I wonder if their shareholders know?

I work in the private sector, my employer doesn't open at weekends and opens weekdays 0800-1800, yet in my contract it states I must be available fully flexible 7 days a week 8am to 9pm. It states I will be given minimum 30 days notice of shifts. The provision is there that if they give me 30 days notice I will have to work a weekend.
Why can't a business operating almost 24/7 issue staff contracts for 7 day availability when a Monday to Friday company can incorporate this requirement into contracts.

It sounds like these employment contracts are stuck in the 70s/80s.

[Henry]

 Perhaps we should go back to the BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) days then.  I remember pay rates were comparatively low
 that staff could not afford to take decent time off.
 Sunday's you were obliged to work your shift unless you could find cover yourself, having said that,
 certainly on the Southern staff were 'competing' for Sundays.

[Electric train]

I work in the private sector, my employer doesn't open at weekends and opens weekdays 0800-1800, yet in my contract it states I must be available fully flexible 7 days a week 8am to 9pm. It states I will be given minimum 30 days notice of shifts. The provision is there that if they give me 30 days notice I will have to work a weekend.
Why can't a business operating almost 24/7 issue staff contracts for 7 day availability when a Monday to Friday company can incorporate this requirement into contracts.

It sounds like these employment contracts are stuck in the 70s/80s.

Exactly the same in the rail industry rosters are produced and published in advance so staff will know their work patterns, the time of notification does vary between employer.  Anything outside of the notified roster becomes overtime which is offered for staff to volunteer to do, which I suspect your employer would do the same if they required you to work with less than 30 days notice the compensation being either money or TOIL.  A degree of spare staff is built into each roster but it will not be massive amount.

[TaplowGreen]

 Perhaps we should go back to the BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) days then.  I remember pay rates were comparatively low
 that staff could not afford to take decent time off.
 Sunday's you were obliged to work your shift unless you could find cover yourself, having said that,
 certainly on the Southern staff were 'competing' for Sundays.

What should happen is for railway workers contracts/terms and conditions to reflect the fact that they have chosen to work for a service organisation that runs a 7 day a week operation and that the expectation is that they will play a full part in that - as I understand it from other posters on here, Sunday working is currently on an optional basis - clearly this needs to change to reflect the fact that it's 2015 and that customers are now suffering as a result of the current arrangements...however with the Unions attitude to any change generally involving the threat of strike action the result of any such suggestion from Management will be howls of protests and strike ballots galore.

It's perfectly possible to have a good work/life balance which involves working some Sundays, millions of people in service industries achieve it every week, and keep their Businesses and customers moving.

[broadgage]

I work in the private sector, my employer doesn't open at weekends and opens weekdays 0800-1800, yet in my contract it states I must be available fully flexible 7 days a week 8am to 9pm. It states I will be given minimum 30 days notice of shifts. The provision is there that if they give me 30 days notice I will have to work a weekend.
Why can't a business operating almost 24/7 issue staff contracts for 7 day availability when a Monday to Friday company can incorporate this requirement into contracts.

It sounds like these employment contracts are stuck in the 70s/80s.

I do not feel it reasonable to force existing staff to work on Sundays if this was not a requirement when they joined. I would not be pleased if I took a Monday to Friday job, and was subsequently told to work on Sundays.

In the case of new employees I feel that Sunday working should be a requirement, provided that this be made clear in the advertising for the job, or at the initial interview. There is nothing inherently unreasonable in this, and any prospective new employee who considers it unreasonable need not apply for the position.

Train drivers are relatively well paid, and so far as I am aware there is no shortage of applicants, though of course not all are suitable.

[Electric train]

 Perhaps we should go back to the BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) days then.  I remember pay rates were comparatively low
 that staff could not afford to take decent time off.
 Sunday's you were obliged to work your shift unless you could find cover yourself, having said that,
 certainly on the Southern staff were 'competing' for Sundays.

What should happen is for railway workers contracts/terms and conditions to reflect the fact that they have chosen to work for a service organisation that runs a 7 day a week operation and that the expectation is that they will play a full part in that - as I understand it from other posters on here, Sunday working is currently on an optional basis - clearly this needs to change to reflect the fact that it's 2015 and that customers are now suffering as a result of the current arrangements...however with the Unions attitude to any change generally involving the threat of strike action the result of any such suggestion from Management will be howls of protests and strike ballots galore.

It's perfectly possible to have a good work/life balance which involves working some Sundays, millions of people in service industries achieve it every week, and keep their Businesses and customers moving.

There is never a problem initialising negotiations to change terms and conditions the Unions will always entertain this where it falls over is what the employer is willing to offer and the work force are willing to accept.

What has to be remembered that for majority of the time staffing levels meet the timetable requirements (ie service offered to its customers), show me a service industry that substantially beats the railway industry in this respect.

[TaplowGreen]

 
What has to be remembered that for majority of the time staffing levels meet the timetable requirements (ie service offered to its customers), show me a service industry that substantially beats the railway industry in this respect.

....the fact that entire branch lines are being knocked out at weekends on a fairly regular basis seems to rebut this point.

I'm not suggesting that those whose current contracts stipulate that they don't have to work Sundays should be expected to do so without getting something in return, after all it is a contractual variation, but the onus should be on the workforce to accept the principle, and negotiate on that basis.

[ellendune]

There are indeed many industries that operate 7 days a week.  How many of them do so by relying on staff to offer to work on their rest days? 

What is the deal when they work rest days? Do they get another day as TOIL (time off in lieu) as well as overtime? If not and they do this on a regular basis they will become tired and are more likely to go off sick. That is when the work life balance becomes an issue.   

[LiskeardRich]

I work in the private sector, my employer doesn't open at weekends and opens weekdays 0800-1800, yet in my contract it states I must be available fully flexible 7 days a week 8am to 9pm. It states I will be given minimum 30 days notice of shifts. The provision is there that if they give me 30 days notice I will have to work a weekend.
Why can't a business operating almost 24/7 issue staff contracts for 7 day availability when a Monday to Friday company can incorporate this requirement into contracts.

It sounds like these employment contracts are stuck in the 70s/80s.

I do not feel it reasonable to force existing staff to work on Sundays if this was not a requirement when they joined. I would not be pleased if I took a Monday to Friday job, and was subsequently told to work on Sundays.

In the case of new employees I feel that Sunday working should be a requirement, provided that this be made clear in the advertising for the job, or at the initial interview. There is nothing inherently unreasonable in this, and any prospective new employee who considers it unreasonable need not apply for the position.

Train drivers are relatively well paid, and so far as I am aware there is no shortage of applicants, though of course not all are suitable.

I don't think existing staff should be outside of their contracted days, however new starters should be given 7 day contracts, this doesn't seem the case.

[Gordon the Blue Engine]

What has to be remembered that for majority of the time staffing levels meet the timetable requirements (ie service offered to its customers), show me a service industry that substantially beats the railway industry in this respect.

Well there^s the airline industry for a start.  They do rather better than ensuring their staffing levels are OK the ^majority^ of the time.  I can^t recall the last time there was plane-replacement^bus to Benidorm.

[John R]

There seems a consensus that existing staff should be allowed to keep their existing contract. I'd like to challenge whether it's reasonable that a school-leaver joining First Group today at 18, potentially with 50+ years of service ahead of them, should be entitled to reject a material change in their working conditions throughout their working life.

Even in the transport industry, many jobs just don't exist that did 50 years ago.  Fancy saying "nope, I'm a bus conductor/fireman/level crossing keeper and that's the only job I'll do, ...".   Working hours is just one particular facet of the job. The world moves on, and we all have to move on with it, whether it be hours/place of work/duties/use of technology/pension benefits etc.

[TaplowGreen]

There seems a consensus that existing staff should be allowed to keep their existing contract. I'd like to challenge whether it's reasonable that a school-leaver joining First Group today at 18, potentially with 50+ years of service ahead of them, should be entitled to reject a material change in their working conditions throughout their working life.

Even in the transport industry, many jobs just don't exist that did 50 years ago.  Fancy saying "nope, I'm a bus conductor/fireman/level crossing keeper and that's the only job I'll do, ...".   Working hours is just one particular facet of the job. The world moves on, and we all have to move on with it, whether it be hours/place of work/duties/use of technology/pension benefits etc.

Hits the nail on the head, I don't think anyone outside what appears to be the cloistered world of the railway industry would argue with that position, we've all had to move with the times on any number of issues.

Everyone should be entitled to adequate time off and a decent work/life balance, but the other side is that if you've chosen to work in a service industry, and that industry operates 7 days a week for its customers, you have to fit your expectations around that.....clearly the service is suffering due to these entrenched positions and that needs to change......there was a time when shops closed on Wednesday afternoons and all day Sundays, who could imagine that now?

The World changes, we all have to change with it.

[LiskeardRich]

Work 5 days out of 7, 2 days off. In reality you can probably make more of a day off in the week than on a Sunday when all the shops open only 6 hours and seem much busier.
A weekday off also allows for appointments at various Monday to Friday organisations.
Working Monday to Friday I need to use a days annual leave if I need time off for a weekday appointment.
There are certain positives to working weekends which I miss.
Small things like picking the kids up from school once a week I don't get the chance to do working Monday to Friday.