Question 2 for Ben Rule - 19.12 - Buffet cars v Trolley service

[whole diary]

[broadgage]

I think that it is now admitted that none of the new DMUs^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) destined for GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) have a buffet.

They were specified thus, and then a survey was done to prove that buffets are no longer needed or wanted. The new units DO have a kitchen in the driving vehicle at the first class end.
Members may recall my statements some years ago that the "new trains will not have buffets" such posts were widely criticised with many members stating that I could not make such statements until I had seen one of the new DMUs.

Others stated that they would have buffets, but only for first class. No, they have kitchens and not a buffet.

If the statements by GWR mean what they say, then services WITH a Pullman will have no catering whatsoever for the rest of the train. I fail to see how provision of a Pullman negates the need for any other catering on the same train.

[ChrisB]

The storage area for the trolley & supplies is probably taken up by the stores required to service the Pullman dining. Also, aren't the trolleys meant to be capable of serving hot food? That has to be prepared somewhere first? IN the kitchen, maybe? The kitchen being used for Pullman Dining?

[chrisr_75]

I reckon if the GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) statements are correct, the Pullman service will have a very short lifespan. After the reduction in 1st class capacity (any many questioning whether it should exist at all), I cannot see the general public or DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) would tolerate certain long distance services having no buffet/shop service to standard class whatsoever when there is a full restaurant (albeit paid for) available to 1st class customers.

However, I suspect that the GWR representative has made a mistake.

[rogerpatenall]

Many forum members are frequent travellers. I find it surprising that, apparently, not a single forum member has admitted to having been party to the 'extensive' market research carried out.

[ChrisB]

Of the thousands that GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) carry, how many do you reckon frequent here to post?

I teckon we represent a very small sub-section of GWR customers, sorry

[broadgage]

I reckon if the GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) statements are correct, the Pullman service will have a very short lifespan. After the reduction in 1st class capacity (any many questioning whether it should exist at all), I cannot see the general public or DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) would tolerate certain long distance services having no buffet/shop service to standard class whatsoever when there is a full restaurant (albeit paid for) available to 1st class customers.

However, I suspect that the GWR representative has made a mistake.

I would however observe that it is not matter of "CERTAIN long distance services having no buffet/shop service to standard class" NONE of the new trains will have any kind of buffet or shop whatsoever, regardless as to the provision or not of a Pullman. It seems that the DfT approved this in line with the policy of maximising number of seats over all else. I suspect that most of the general public have no idea about this downgrade until they travel on a new DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit).

Only a trolley was to be provided on the new trains. However it now seems that even provision of trolley service is in doubt on those services that have a Pullman.
I agree that the GWR rep MAY have made a mistake, or it might be a way of gently releasing bad news and hoping that no one notices, until it is too late to alter things.

[IndustryInsider]

Personally I'd be surprised.  The Pullman services are timed for when people want food and drink, and so
a trolley would expect to do good trade on those trains too and given only a tiny fraction of passengers will be dining I'd have though GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) would be losing money if they didn't.  A badly briefed manager getting mixed up is my guess.

[chrisr_75]

I reckon if the GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) statements are correct, the Pullman service will have a very short lifespan. After the reduction in 1st class capacity (any many questioning whether it should exist at all), I cannot see the general public or DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) would tolerate certain long distance services having no buffet/shop service to standard class whatsoever when there is a full restaurant (albeit paid for) available to 1st class customers.

However, I suspect that the GWR representative has made a mistake.

I would however observe that it is not matter of "CERTAIN long distance services having no buffet/shop service to standard class" NONE of the new trains will have any kind of buffet or shop whatsoever, regardless as to the provision or not of a Pullman. It seems that the DfT approved this in line with the policy of maximising number of seats over all else. I suspect that most of the general public have no idea about this downgrade until they travel on a new DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit).

Only a trolley was to be provided on the new trains. However it now seems that even provision of trolley service is in doubt on those services that have a Pullman.
I agree that the GWR rep MAY have made a mistake, or it might be a way of gently releasing bad news and hoping that no one notices, until it is too late to alter things.

Apologies, I should've typed that as buffet/shop/trolley. I appreciate that there will be no fixed 'asset' in standard class at all, but would be surprised if any of the trains had no provision for selling light food and hot/cold drinks, especially where a Pullman service was present.

[1st fan]

The storage area for the trolley & supplies is probably taken up by the stores required to service the Pullman dining. Also, aren't the trolleys meant to be capable of serving hot food? That has to be prepared somewhere first? IN the kitchen, maybe? The kitchen being used for Pullman Dining?

I was told about the standard class trolley a while (more than a year) back by an off duty GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) staff member on a train. They said that when they asked about the trolley for the new trains they were told that "yes there will be a trolley don't worry". When they asked a friend at head office where these were coming from the response was that there hadn't been much done about it. Said something like 'there are more important things to worry about [with these trains] than that'. Not sure if anything's changed (and I hope it has) but I won't be holding my breath.

[grahame]

Many forum members are frequent travellers. I find it surprising that, apparently, not a single forum member has admitted to having been party to the 'extensive' market research carried out.

Of the thousands that GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) carry, how many do you reckon frequent here to post?

I teckon we represent a very small sub-section of GWR customers, sorry

Posters here in any month are in the hundreds of individuals.  Lurkers and readers are much bigger numbers - last month there were just over 9,000 readers (over 96% in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom)).  We were visited from around 31,000 different remote hosts, with an overall response to some 3.3 million requests.

We are indeed a tiny proportion of users.  But - my goodness - it's very hard to get "Joe Public" to take an interest, and we do better than many.  Overall message - don't underestimate the reach w have to lurkers, and to the search engines which send people our way when they have a relevant query.  It was very instructive to run the "live chat" back in August and see just how people are sent to the site and what questions they have.   Also very instructive as to how much resources those things take to answer!

[IndustryInsider]

I was told about the standard class trolley a while (more than a year) back by an off duty GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) staff member on a train. They said that when they asked about the trolley for the new trains they were told that "yes there will be a trolley don't worry". When they asked a friend at head office where these were coming from the response was that there hadn't been much done about it. Said something like 'there are more important things to worry about [with these trains] than that'. Not sure if anything's changed (and I hope it has) but I won't be holding my breath.

Plenty has been done about it, focus groups, trial runs, equipment selection etc.  See my post on the previous page for more details.

[John R]

Well we've under two weeks until we know the answer. And I suspect there'll be at least one poster who takes the trouble to try out the trains on the inaugural day (if not the inaugural run) and will be reporting back.

[1st fan]

I was told about the standard class trolley a while (more than a year) back by an off duty GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) staff member on a train. They said that when they asked about the trolley for the new trains they were told that "yes there will be a trolley don't worry". When they asked a friend at head office where these were coming from the response was that there hadn't been much done about it. Said something like 'there are more important things to worry about [with these trains] than that'. Not sure if anything's changed (and I hope it has) but I won't be holding my breath.

Plenty has been done about it, focus groups, trial runs, equipment selection etc.  See my post on the previous page for more details.

Yeah as I say this was a long while ago and I suspected things would have moved on. I'm hoping that you're correct

Atlas Carts for the First Class service, which has an improved range of items over the current offering (croissants, sandwiches etc.)

and they've improved complimentary catering in 1st to compensate for the hard product in these trains. The kitchens certainly look good.

[ChrisB]

Ben Rule last night at the ACORP^▸ (Association of Community Rail Partnerships) Awards....every IET^▸ (Intercity Express Train) *will* have a trolley (or two on a 10car & I think, 9cars) in Standard! The parking bays for these are unaffected by whether the train is a Pullman. There will also be a 1st class trolley (again, two on a 10car) but when I asked whether that includes Pullmans, he wasn't sure about 5car IETs or whether a member of the Pullman crew would serve the non-diners in the same 1st class area. There would be in the second 1st class section on 10car IETs. They will be higher spec trolleys as discussed previously.

Hopefully, this is now settled

[devonexpress]

I reckon if the GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) statements are correct, the Pullman service will have a very short lifespan. After the reduction in 1st class capacity (any many questioning whether it should exist at all), I cannot see the general public or DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) would tolerate certain long distance services having no buffet/shop service to standard class whatsoever when there is a full restaurant (albeit paid for) available to 1st class customers.

However, I suspect that the GWR representative has made a mistake.

Why would the Pullman service have a short lifespan, the First Class section is roughly the same name as it is in the IET^▸ (Intercity Express Train), greater infact in a 10 car set. And I was told 2 years ago by GWR that they even want to expand the service where possible. Why would they want to loose something that brings in money for them?