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Author Topic: First Great Western - industrial action in 2015 - merged topic  (Read 151506 times)
TaplowGreen
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« Reply #315 on: August 29, 2015, 10:05:40 »

Mark Hopwood was pretty straight on BBC» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) regional news programs last night saying "The RMT (National Union of Rail, Maritime & Transport Workers) need to recognise there's a good package on the table. They should accept it, get back to work and concentrate on looking forward to all the investment that will make a big difference for everyone who uses this railway".

Doesn't sound to me that FGW (First Great Western)/Dft are going to be backing down anytime soon. Have the RMT boxed themselves into a corner on this one?

I sincerely hope so, as the RMT are just tilting at windmills.
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Timmer
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« Reply #316 on: August 29, 2015, 11:07:02 »

Due to no FGW (First Great Western) trains between Cardiff and Swansea today, ATW (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC (Train Operating Company))) are running a 4 car shuttle between these points.
Later in the day the 1545, 1645, 1745, 1845 ex Paddington are scheduled to operate through to Swansea.
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Timmer
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« Reply #317 on: August 29, 2015, 11:24:14 »

Looking at the board on Real Times Trains for services into and out of Paddington, so far everything running to the revised schedule with no services cancelled. Of course I cannot see what loadings are like but if they are good then this is a blow to RMT (National Union of Rail, Maritime & Transport Workers)'s plan to cause major disruption as FGW (First Great Western) continue to operate a good service despite the strike.

The services hit hardest are local services outside of the Thames valley. With engineering work at Bath continuing, many of these local trains are replaced by buses anyway. Something that wouldn't happen if the strike was taking place at another time as sourcing replacement transport at short notice wouldn't be easy.
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Kernowman
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« Reply #318 on: August 29, 2015, 14:30:00 »

It looks like the Newquay branch service comprises solely of three Crosscountry services today and one tomorrow (The branch's normal summer weekend Crosscountry timetable). Shocked
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4064ReadingAbbey
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« Reply #319 on: August 29, 2015, 14:57:33 »

I guess the point I was making is despite all the talk of the IEP (Intercity Express Program / Project.) being a massive waste of money and fares having to rise massively to afford to operate them, it appears that FGW (First Great Western) considered it sensible to order some more - though I take the point about reduced costs due to the design now being practically 'off the shelf'.


I have represented the point about the IEP being a ^massive waste of money^ in this forum before and I continue to maintain that is the case. The reason is the way that the DfT» (Department for Transport - about) has contracted Agility Trains to supply rolling stock in a Train Service Provision (TSP (Train Service Provider)) agreement in which all the risks connected with train design, manufacture, testing, operation and maintenance are passed to the manufacturer. No train - no pay.

On the surface of it, this is a good thing, but it can have unintended consequences. If one is not prepared to accept any risk at all then one will pay through the nose for the privilege of allowing other people to carry it. This is the railway equivalent of the now discredited PPP/PFI  type of contract where the contractor supplies the capital for the project and the user pays a rent which reimburses the contractor for the capital, the financing costs of the capital and the daily use and maintenance of the facility.

The National Audit Office published a report on 9th July 2014 (Procuring new trains HC 531 Session 2014-15 9 July 2014) which was openly critical of the way the DfT procured the IEP and Thameslink trains.

The financial figures included in the NAO^s report for the IEP were analysed by the transport journalist Roger Ford in the August 2014 edition of Modern Railways on pages 30 to 31. He concluded that the annual charge on the train operator for the Western^s tranche of trains will be some ^300 million (my rounding).

The Office of Rail Regulation (as was) publishes a range of statistics on railway use, costs and revenues. In its document entitled ^GB (Great Britain) rail industry financial information for the year ending 31 March 2014^ are included the annual rolling stock charges for the TOCs (Train Operating Company). Those for fGW amount to ^71 million. To this amount must be added the cost of daily maintenance, consumables (such as brake pads) and cleaning. In the ORR» (Office of Rail and Road formerly Office of Rail Regulation - about) table is a heading ^Other operating expenditure^ which amounts to ^166 million for fGW which includes these, and many other, expenses. If it is assumed that half of this amount is for maintenance of the current fleet (to put the calculation on approximately the same basis as the IEP calculations) the direct cost of train operation comes to some ^150 million for the total fleet: that is all the High Speed Trains and all the trains required for the Thames Valley and Bristol suburban services, the Cotswold lines and the West Country.

In other words the annual cost of the IEP fleet looks to be double that which fGW currently pays for all of its trains.

In contrast the AT300 trains have been bought by Eversholt and the price quoted is the purchase price of the hardware. In the September 2015 issue of Modern Railways Roger Ford calculates that the monthly cost of ownership of these trains, that is lease rental to Eversholt plus maintenance, will be about half of that of an essentially identical vehicle contracted for by the DfT.

I attended a presentation made to the Railway Division of the IMechE on 27th June 2011. At that event one of the DfT^s civil servants responsible for the IEP, Stuart Baker, stated quite clearly that the charges for the trains would be paid by the TOC and guaranteed by the DfT.

This leaves the big open question as to how the difference between the monthly payments due for the Agility Trains^ vehicles and the Eversholt vehicles will be covered.

There are only two sources of money - the farepayers and the taxpayers. If fares are not to be increased then only the taxpayer comes into question. Either the subsidy paid to the TOC has to increase (or the premium paid is reduced) or the TOC pays the going rate for such a train and the taxpayer chips in the difference directly, but suitably disguised, via the DfT/Treasury.

Alternatively the TOC could play hard ball and order more AT300s to replace some or all of the IEPs leaving the DfT to make the TSP payments to Agility Trains by itself. That would be the nuclear option^!

The argument that increased traffic will pay for the higher TSP lease payments for the IEP is a nonsense - the difference is so large that the traffic growth of even 10% per annum would not cover it - it should not be forgotten that the higher payments start the moment the trains enter service - and anyway with such a growth rate the trains would run out of seats within a couple of years! The widely accepted view that electric operation is more economical is not born out by the fact that the TSP deal is more expensive that the current set up using diesel power.

I maintain that the current arrangement is unstable in the longer term and suggest that the DfT/Agility Trains contract will have to be reexamined. A possible move might be to obtain alternative quotes for the financing and for the maintenance separately - this will be cheaper than the current arrangement as the unknowns will reduce with a maturing programme. This could then mean that Agility Trains is reformed as a ROSCO» (Rolling Stock Owning Company - about) (assuming it comes in with the best offer) and contracts the maintenance to Hitachi directly in the same way that the Class 395s were supplied by Hitachi and financed by a ROSCO (HBSC Rail) or the Class 390 Pendolinos were financed by Angel Trains and built and maintained by Alstom.

Something, somewhere, will have to give.

I've no doubt Hitachi's new manufacturing facility will also benefit the country oconsiderably over the coming decades which few people seem to acknowledge and wouldn't have happened had the IEP not happened.

As long as it remains a 'screwdriver' assembly plant then the economic benefits will continue to be limited. It will only become interesting when higher added-value activities take place there as well - design, prototype production, testing and manufacture of higher added-value components and systems such as the power electronics, motors, train management systems and so on.
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Timmer
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« Reply #320 on: August 29, 2015, 14:59:12 »

It looks like the Newquay branch service comprises solely of three Crosscountry services today and one tomorrow (The branch's normal summer weekend Crosscountry timetable). Shocked
Yep, despite the FGW (First Great Western) strike action page saying no services will operate between Par and Newquay, Cross Country services to/from Newquay are running as normal today and tomorrow as are services between Plymouth and Penzance. Couple these with the 2 hourly service FGW are operating, you can easily travel from London to Cornwall connecting at Plymouth.
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ChrisB
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« Reply #321 on: August 29, 2015, 15:26:10 »

4064ReadingAbbey posted (quote refusing to work)

Quote
This leaves the big open question as to how the difference between the monthly payments due for the Agility Trains^ vehicles and the Eversholt vehicles will be covered.

At least partially through savings in staff/depots for maintenance....be interested to know what % that might be....
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IndustryInsider
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« Reply #322 on: August 30, 2015, 09:54:40 »

Something, somewhere, will have to give.

Thanks for your lengthy reply, and apologies for only quoting one small part of it.  I shall be awaiting events with interest...
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« Reply #323 on: August 30, 2015, 10:32:49 »

They could have kept the HST (High Speed Train)'s but for how much longer?

...

Ultimately the body-shell must have a fatigue life! All that would cost a lot of money an how long would it extend their life? Another 10 years? and then what?
I seem to recall reading that somebody had done the analysis and came up with IC125/Mark3 being good until 2035.

The other option on the table was a non bi-mode HST life extension, so why the specific need for a bi-mode train - 53 miles under the wires is hardly much? 

Though perhaps another reason could be that FGW (First Great Western)/DfT wanted a bi-mode train to improve the likelihood of electrification further west in the coming years and, as you rightly say, it would then have to come from Hitachi.
Newbury/Reading to PAD» (Paddington (London) - next trains) is indeed not very far when compared to the distance the Plymouth/Penzance services would be running beyond the wires. Personally, I felt that keeping the IC125s would have improved the likelihood of further electrification much more than brand new bi-mode trains. With IC125, a replacement would have been needed arround 2035 which should have been ample time to get the wires extended from Newbury to Plymouth at least, just as replacement of IC125 on the PAD-Bristol/Oxford/Swansea routes has triggered electrification of those lines. Of course the delay to the electrification programme might ruin that idea however.

I feel for the staff on this because their union leadership is leading them on a fight they can't win.

Why? Because it's not FGW that they are fighting, it's the Dft, who won't/can't back down because they have agreed to pay Hitachi mega money for these trains, way over the odds. Let's not forget one of the bidders lead by Alstom walked away from IEP (Intercity Express Program / Project.) because in their minds it didn't add up. They could do easily have provided a fleet of Pendolinos with loco haulage beyond the wires but for this quirky plan of operating bi-mode units.

I think this because by now if it was in FGW's power to do something about this, that would satisfy the RMT (National Union of Rail, Maritime & Transport Workers), that they would have done as this is not good for business having yet another strike to deal with no matter how many trains they run this weekend.
I agree that it is DfT» (Department for Transport - about) that RMT are/should be fighting here. I don't however understand why DfT can't/won't back down on some of the issues. In particular, the issue of guards should be solveable. Sure, drivers might not be too happy about having operating the doors added to their job description but the DfT should be able to make a guard compulsary on every service worked by the new class 80x-series trains, or at least mandate that a guard is diagramed WITH A HEFTY FINE for the operator SHOULD THEY FAIL TO PROVIDE THE BOOKED GUARD on any service.
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Don't DOO (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) it, keep the guard (but it probably wouldn't be a bad idea if the driver unlocked the doors on arrival at calling points).
grahame
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« Reply #324 on: August 30, 2015, 10:49:47 »

They could have kept the HST (High Speed Train)'s but for how much longer?
Personally, I felt that keeping the IC125s would have improved the likelihood of further electrification much more than brand new bi-mode trains. With IC125, a replacement would have been needed arround 2035 which should have been ample time to get the wires extended from Newbury to Plymouth at least ...

You may well be correct, but isn't a bird in the hand worth two in the bush?

Example - There was a strategic decision taken about 3 or 4 years ago on the TransWilts.  A choice to have the service improved under LSTF (Local Sustainable Transport Fund) in 2013, 2014 and 2015 for a trial period in the less than ideal condition of significant disruption during electrification works / Box tunnel, or waiting for that work to be completed to give a best clean trial at a time when there were no engineering works going on.   The choice was made not to wait, and indeed had we waited I suspect that the opportunity and impetus would have been lost.   As it is, we've not done too badly inspire of the summer Sunday service not having run to timetable once this year!

For sure, we now have a period where it's not realistic to campaign for 4 x the number of current services (or to have the TransWilts included in the current electrification) but - hey - what we've got's working and we do have a strategy forward.

On principle, I welcome new trains for the far South West services.  I don't know how it's all going to work out, I may be sad at the loss of certain facilities and through trains (but then there's some hypocrisy if I do more than be quietly sad at the loss of the Pembroke Coast Express as Ive never travelled on it), but there are many good people around in the rail industry who do know what they're doing, all be they mixed with a few who at times can benefit from customer inputs, steers, and occasionally outright shoves and protests.
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« Reply #325 on: August 30, 2015, 11:43:20 »

On principle, I welcome new trains for the far South West services.  I don't know how it's all going to work out, I may be sad at the loss of certain facilities and through trains (but then there's some hypocrisy if I do more than be quietly sad at the loss of the Pembroke Coast Express as Ive never travelled on it), but there are many good people around in the rail industry who do know what they're doing, all be they mixed with a few who at times can benefit from customer inputs, steers, and occasionally outright shoves and protests.
Even more than the Pembroke Coast Express (which, it seems, will now run until 2018 (I had feared the new franchise agreement starting in the next few weeks would not include it), hopefully giving time for the Wales & Borders franchise to find a way to manage the traffic levels), my fear is that the bi-mode new trains for the far south west will mean no further electrification on the route for the 30yr life of the diesel engines. Also, although I don't generally mind underfloor engine noise, there is indesputable evidence that underfloor engines were not wanted on such a long journey, yet underfloor engines is exactly what they're getting.
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Don't DOO (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) it, keep the guard (but it probably wouldn't be a bad idea if the driver unlocked the doors on arrival at calling points).
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« Reply #326 on: August 30, 2015, 11:47:48 »

A pleasant change to see a 180 doing shuttle duty on the Cotswold Line during the industrial action yesterday - presumably all the Turbos were required for Thames Valley services.
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ChrisB
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« Reply #327 on: August 30, 2015, 11:50:04 »

[there is indesputable evidence that underfloor engines were not wanted on such a long journey, yet underfloor engines is exactly what they're getting.

So where is this "indisputable" evidence? I've only seen some comments on here, and in the press. Certainly no survey of at least 1,000 pax that use the service - usually the minimum for an acceptable statistical survey
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Timmer
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« Reply #328 on: August 30, 2015, 11:58:52 »

So where is this "indisputable" evidence? I've only seen some comments on here, and in the press. Certainly no survey of at least 1,000 pax that use the service - usually the minimum for an acceptable statistical survey
I would suspect most of the travelling public couldn't care less where the engine is. All they are interested in is getting to where they want to go.
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Worcester_Passenger
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« Reply #329 on: August 30, 2015, 12:06:59 »

A pleasant change to see a 180 doing shuttle duty on the Cotswold Line during the industrial action yesterday - presumably all the Turbos were required for Thames Valley services.
Even that had problems with the number of people trying to get to Kingham for the Big Feastival.
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