First Great Western - industrial action in 2015 - merged topic

[whole diary]

[IndustryInsider]

Why? Because it's not FGW^▸ (First Great Western) that they are fighting, it's the Dft, who won't/can't back down because they have agreed to pay Hitachi mega money for these trains, way over the odds.

I'm interested in the fact that despite all the 'mega money' and 'way over the odds' statements that are going around (from a lot of people), that FGW have ordered a fleet of virtually identical trains (the AT300s) for the Cornish routes.  It must mean one or more of these factors influenced the decision:

1)  The AT300s are being procured at a much cheaper price than the IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.)'s.
2)  The AT300s are roughly the same price but in fact the price, when the maintenance and fleet availability contract is taken into account over 27 years, isn't actually that bad.
3)  FGW wanted compatibility with the IEP fleet to maximise fleet utilisation and be able to assist with failures.
4)  The DfT basically told FGW that they would be ordering those trains to continue to suck up to Hitachi.
5)  Other dark forces are at work.  That one's specially for you, Broadgage   

[ellendune]

Why? Because it's not FGW^▸ (First Great Western) that they are fighting, it's the Dft, who won't/can't back down because they have agreed to pay Hitachi mega money for these trains, way over the odds.

I'm interested in the fact that despite all the 'mega money' and 'way over the odds' statements that are going around (from a lot of people), that FGW have ordered a fleet of virtually identical trains (the AT300s) for the Cornish routes.  It must mean one or more of these factors influenced the decision:

1)  The AT300s are being procured at a much cheaper price than the IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.)'s.
2)  The AT300s are roughly the same price but in fact the price, when the maintenance and fleet availability contract is taken into account over 27 years, isn't actually that bad.
3)  FGW wanted compatibility with the IEP fleet to maximise fleet utilisation and be able to assist with failures.
4)  The DfT basically told FGW that they would be ordering those trains to continue to suck up to Hitachi.
5)  Other dark forces are at work.  That one's specially for you, Broadgage  

I would add:

They were the only ones who could offer a bi-mode train in the timescale because it was an adaptation of an existing design - other would have had to start from a paper design they did for IEP bidding. 

[IndustryInsider]

The other option on the table was a non bi-mode HST^▸ (High Speed Train) life extension, so why the specific need for a bi-mode train - 53 miles under the wires is hardly much? 

Though perhaps another reason could be that FGW^▸ (First Great Western)/DfT wanted a bi-mode train to improve the likelihood of electrification further west in the coming years and, as you rightly say, it would then have to come from Hitachi.

[broadgage]

Apart from "dark forces" I consider it likely that the AT300s are being obtained for a significantly lower price than the SETs^▸ (Super Express Train (now IET)).
A great deal of expense was no doubt incurred in the IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) project and would presumably be reflected in the price charged for the resulting trains. A follow on order for either more SETs, or as in this case for a very similar design would presumably be cheaper per train now that much of the development has been done.

Also the government had decided what they wanted, and few train builders seemed interested in such an odd design, there might have been a view that "we can charge what we want, the department for transport want them and no one else wants to build them"
FGW^▸ (First Great Western) were in a much stronger position since they could have kept the HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train)  had they considered the price of the AT300s to be too high.

[JayMac]

Thing is though, FGW^▸ (First Great Western) aren't buying the AT300s. They will be purchased by Eversholt Rail.

[ellendune]

They could have kept the HST^▸ (High Speed Train)'s but for how much longer?  They are no 40 years old, albeit with new engines. To increase turn-round time they need power doors.  They would need major investment in life extension. Sooner or later they would have needed to be retrofitted with controlled emission toilets. Ultimately the body-shell must have a fatigue life! All that would cost a lot of money an how long would it extend their life? Another 10 years? and then what? 


We like the HSTs, they have been really good, but like a good sportsman they need to know when to retire - while people still think they are good and not leave it until they are considered unreliable and worn out. 

[Timmer]

Of course it makes sense for FGW^▸ (First Great Western) to order AT300s to have a compatible fleet after being forced to operate Dft's choice of SET^▸ (Super Express Train (now IET)). After 2019 FGW may not even be operating them, so yes I do think Dft are behind it.

It made no sense to keep the HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) going. If they did, all you would be doing is delaying obtaining a replacement fleet in a few years time that would cost even more than placing this add on order with Hitachi now.

It's because of the high cost of SET that FGW/Dft have got to cut costs to balance the books. If this is not the case then why can't all FGW depot staff be guaranteed jobs at the new Hitachi depots? This I do have an understanding towards RMT^▸ (National Union of Rail, Maritime & Transport Workers)'s concerns. Who opens the doors and no buffet (sorry Broadgage) I do not.

[IndustryInsider]

They could have kept the HST^▸ (High Speed Train)'s but for how much longer?  They are no 40 years old, albeit with new engines. To increase turn-round time they need power doors.  They would need major investment in life extension. Sooner or later they would have needed to be retrofitted with controlled emission toilets. Ultimately the body-shell must have a fatigue life! All that would cost a lot of money an how long would it extend their life? Another 10 years? and then what? 


We like the HSTs, they have been really good, but like a good sportsman they need to know when to retire - while people still think they are good and not leave it until they are considered unreliable and worn out. 

Yes indeed, I agree with all that, but Scotrail seems to think those modifications are all achievable and worthwhile.  We'll see how that pans out!

I guess the point I was making is despite all the talk of the IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) being a massive waste of money and fares having to rise massively to afford to operate them, it appears that FGW^▸ (First Great Western) considered it sensible to order some more - though I take the point about reduced costs due to the design now being practically 'off the shelf'.

I've no doubt Hitachi's new manufacturing facility will also benefit the country oconsiderably over the coming decades which few people seem to acknowledge and wouldn't have happened had the IEP not happened.

[ChrisB]

why can't all FGW^▸ (First Great Western) depot staff be guaranteed jobs at the new Hitachi depots? This I do have an understanding towards RMT^▸ (National Union of Rail, Maritime & Transport Workers)'s concerns. Who opens the doors and no buffet (sorry Broadgage) I do not.

New technology always need fewer staff to maintain, a lot of it being automated. I suspect the hand of the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about), not FGW (who cannot over-rule their paymasters) in the transfer of maintenance to Hitachi. If they'd left maintenance in-house, there's no way that the staffing could be reduced to levels actually needed, and many would be sitting around with little to do. ~It's called progress, and happens in all industries

[TeaStew]

I am not sure about this particular case but I have seen companies very effectively reduce staff levels to what was deemed necessary.

Of course a lot of people who always seem to be sitting about doing nothing will end up in the new structure

[ChrisB]

I am not sure about this particular case but I have seen companies very effectively reduce staff levels to what was deemed necessary.

Not likely with the strength of the RMT^▸ (National Union of Rail, Maritime & Transport Workers). hence the transfer to Hitachi, who possibly don't even recognise unions yet?

[grahame]

And so, because "W" and "X" cannot agree, "Y" (the customers) are inconvenienced / put off to the long term benefit of "Z" (people in non-rail travel industries).  Well done, chaps!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-34094375

A number of rail services have been cancelled as First Great Western staff begin a three-day walkout.

Industrial action, the result of a dispute over the introduction of new high-speed trains, is set to affect routes in south-west England and Wales.

Talks between the firm and the Rail, Maritime and Transport (RMT^▸ (National Union of Rail, Maritime & Transport Workers)) union failed to avert the strike.

The firm says it told the union there will be no job losses, but the RMT said "basic assurances" had not been given.

Action will disrupt FGW^▸ (First Great Western) services, which run between London Paddington and south Wales and south-west England, with some cancellations already announced.

Other trains may be very busy, and last train services are likely to leave "significantly earlier" than usual, the operator warned.

RMT General Secretary Mick Cash said it had been left with "no option" but to strike. "Despite strenuous and continuing efforts by our negotiators we have not been able to secure the kind of progress we hoped for in the key areas of jobs, services and safety for us to reach an agreement," he said.

An FGW spokesman accused the union of unfairly inconveniencing passengers and asking members to go without pay despite a "series of concessions" on the firm's part. "They've already got what they asked for," he added.

Notable service alterations
* No services will run between Severn Beach and Bristol Temple Meads
* Trains between Looe and Liskeard, Newquay and Par, Falmouth and Truro and Plymouth and Gunnislake will not operate
* Reading to Gatwick services will operate hourly and terminate at Redhill
* Extra shuttle services will be laid on between Reading and London on Monday because of the Reading Festival

[ellendune]

Ah but both DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) and RMT^▸ (National Union of Rail, Maritime & Transport Workers) is based in London and, like all London based (biased) organisations, assume that the rest of the country is just the same as London.  They therefore assume that rail users have no choice and so it will have no long term effect. 

[Timmer]

Mark Hopwood was pretty straight on BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) regional news programs last night saying "The RMT^▸ (National Union of Rail, Maritime & Transport Workers) need to recognise there's a good package on the table. They should accept it, get back to work and concentrate on looking forward to all the investment that will make a big difference for everyone who uses this railway".

Doesn't sound to me that FGW^▸ (First Great Western)/Dft are going to be backing down anytime soon. Have the RMT boxed themselves into a corner on this one?

[phile]

Due to no FGW^▸ (First Great Western) trains between Cardiff and Swansea today, ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company))) are running a 4 car shuttle between these points.