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TaplowGreen
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« on: May 06, 2015, 18:56:34 » |
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So Plymouth Argyle are playing the first leg of their Division 2 playoff semi final on Saturday evening at Home Park in front of an anticipated crowd of up to 15,000 and the last trains in either direction leave Plymouth............before the final whistle......marvellous!  |
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JayMac
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« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2015, 19:16:45 » |
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Indeed. You'd like to think the organisers of the match would take into consideration the transport options available to their fans. But they don't. They just consider the ^s broadcasters throw at them.
The train timetable is a known quantity much further in advance of any club's potential play-off fixtures. It's hardly the fault of the railways if the powers that be, The Football League, the club and SKY TV, decide to schedule a 1945 kick-off. Blame them. Not the railways.
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"A clear conscience laughs at a false accusation."
"Treat everyone the same until you find out they're an idiot."
"Moral indignation is a technique used to endow the idiot with dignity."
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devon_metro
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« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2015, 20:06:15 » |
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The last train eastbound from Plymouth is 2115. I've caught it once before. Bit of a joke how early it is really!
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grahame
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« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2015, 23:33:02 » |
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The last train eastbound from Plymouth is 2115. I've caught it once before. Bit of a joke how early it is really!
It seems that the 24 x 7 railway of the future isn't quite the headline it was at one time - and I've mentioned (and been followed up) on how its done 365 days a year (yes, even Christmas day) on the PATH into New York. There's a very interesting thought about extending operating hours in general as a first move toward it -I'll leave each area to the local experts to comment, but I do know that Swindon Town supporters would love a later train on Saturday nights on the TransWilts for getting home from away games, and (into Swindon) 18:48 is piteously early for the final Westbury to Swindon on Saturday. From Bristol to Chippenham and Swindon, the 22:35 could do with being followed by a further service an hour later. And there are also places where a service an hour earlier than the first morning train ... Such service extensions need to be considered financially; passenger numbers may be high and may be patchy from one day to the next. Do you work out the financed based on a) Sharing fixed costs of the train across the whole extended service or b) Consider the new service on purely the additional costs of the extra services and a) Do you consider the trains based on the passengers they will convey or b) Consider them based on the extra journeys made - so taking in to account the extra daytime traffic in the other direction, and on connecting trains |
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Coffee Shop Admin, Chair of Melksham Rail User Group, TravelWatch SouthWest Board Member
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TaplowGreen
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« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2015, 09:09:22 » |
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Indeed. You'd like to think the organisers of the match would take into consideration the transport options available to their fans. But they don't. They just consider the ^s broadcasters throw at them.
The train timetable is a known quantity much further in advance of any club's potential play-off fixtures. It's hardly the fault of the railways if the powers that be, The Football League, the club and SKY TV, decide to schedule a 1945 kick-off. Blame them. Not the railways.
..........and that folks, perfectly illustrates the railways attitude to its customers, and one of the reasons why it has such a poor brand image - most Businesses gave up that attitude around 1975 and started to shape and adapt their operations around the needs of their customers, rather than expecting their customers to organise their lives around the business for its own convenience...........its the worst manifestation of a monopoly supplier - take it or leave it. A great opportunity for good PR▸ , publicity and additional profit thrown away on the altar of "...that's not the way we do things around here" |
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eightf48544
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« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2015, 09:40:08 » |
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Once again you pose some interesting questions Graham.
The "bean counter" approach tends to be b as cross subsidies are frowned upon by true market force economists.
As a Keynsian I would favour a but also take into account c and d
C in particular is important there's no point in putting on an extra train if nobody uses it.
d is interesting argument which came up with the Beeching report where lines were measured indivdualy and no account taken of final destinations. so people travelling on a line from a to c changing at b (end of first line) were not taken into account as being a loss to c if the a to b line was shut and they couldn't then make the journey to c.
Not expressed the very well but you get the point.
Rail should basically be an integrated connected network and costed accordingly. However, that is almost impossible to do as the number of journey combinations are huge. However, it should be possible to do some modelling on key nodal points by counting starting station for arrivals, destination station for departures. It would probably have to be done on some form of sampling basis.
Good points Taplowgreen but i'm afrain the TOCS are now meant to be "lean mean money machines".
Whist there may be spare stock (not under maintenance on a Saturday night) the chances of there being spare drivers and guards at that time of night is remote to say the least.
Gone are the days when control could whistle up a spare 80XXX 4MT tank, driver, fireman and goods guard to take some wagons from Redhill to Three Bridges, in the middle of the day down the Brighton line (no timings) and give me footplate ride at the same time are long gone.
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paul7575
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« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2015, 09:49:54 » |
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A great opportunity for good PR▸ , publicity and additional profit thrown away on the altar of "...that's not the way we do things around here"
This debate occurs every year around the play-offs, because by their nature they are completely un-plannable until about a week before. Should planned engineering work, booked 2 years in advance, be cancelled and re-planned? Should NR» Western route just leave a whole fortnight clear every year just in case - given the vast majority of teams likely to appear are not in the South West? The authorities that are culpable here are the league and TV companies. Paul |
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grahame
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« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2015, 10:10:48 » |
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This debate occurs every year around the play-offs, because by their nature they are completely un-plannable until about a week before.
Should planned engineering work, booked 2 years in advance, be cancelled and re-planned?
Should NR» Western route just leave a whole fortnight clear every year just in case - given the vast majority of teams likely to appear are not in the South West?
No - of course such things shouldn't be replanned - but where there are no such engineering works, running of extra services at times when the stock's not all in use shouldn't easily be ruled out ... and if there are engineering works it would be good to see that explanation in public - "sorry - preplanned engineering", which I'm not aware of in this case. The final arrivals into Plymouth from Taunton and beyond are at 23:46 and 23:56 on Saturday night - so an eastbound train leaving at 22:00 for Exeter would be virtually there before the second of those trains set off, so the public will think "why NOT take people home?" I'm not privy to engineering closures - I take it that the eastbound line out of Plymouth is closed early for engineering this Saturday while the line coming in from the east remains open for nearly 2 hours more? It is very much harder for a big set of organisations to (re)arrange things at short notice that smaller ones - however, come up with operational issues and we know they can do so, and at times it does feel that those same skills which we know they have could be put to use for issues away from the rails, and with marketing and business benefit. |
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Coffee Shop Admin, Chair of Melksham Rail User Group, TravelWatch SouthWest Board Member
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JayMac
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« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2015, 10:21:23 » |
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Can the operator and Network Rail really rustle up extra services with less than two weeks notice?
Or can the Football League, club and broadcaster chose an earlier kick off?
I think it I know which of those options is more practical.
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"A clear conscience laughs at a false accusation."
"Treat everyone the same until you find out they're an idiot."
"Moral indignation is a technique used to endow the idiot with dignity."
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grahame
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« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2015, 10:32:17 » |
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There are no planned engineering works this weekend on that route, so that isn't an issue.
Don't be totally sure. The document quoted - as I understand it - refers only to engineering works that effect scheduled trains. As no trains are scheduled on the eastbound track at the time we're talking about ... Backup evidence - there's frequently engineering south of Castle Cary toward Weymouth on winter Sunday mornings, which doesn't appear in "train changes" publicity, and requests for the Sunday morning TransWilts train to run an hour earlier (supported by the TOC▸ ) aren't able to be met because of longer overnight engineering possessions on Saturday nights. Edited to fix my bad quoting - G |
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« Last Edit: May 07, 2015, 11:06:13 by grahame »
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Coffee Shop Admin, Chair of Melksham Rail User Group, TravelWatch SouthWest Board Member
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TaplowGreen
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« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2015, 10:46:17 » |
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There are no planned engineering works this weekend on that route, so that isn't an issue.
Don't be totally sure. The document quoted - as I understand it - refers only to engineering works that effect scheduled trains. As no trains are scheduled on the eastbound track at the time we're talking about ... Backup evidence - there's frequently engineering south of Castle Cary toward Weymouth on winter Sunday mornings, which doesn't appear in "train changes" publicity, and requests for the Sunday morning TransWilts train to run an hour earlier (supported by the TOC▸ ) aren't able to be met because of longer overnight engineering possessions on Saturday nights. Others in Plymouth (including rail enthusiasts who also follow sport) have engaged with FGW▸ on this subject and have confirmed that there are no engineering works taking place which would prevent trains running in the area. Also worth noting that should Argyle get to Wembley, (kicks off at 5.30pm on Sat 23rd), the last train back to Plymouth leaves Paddington at 2006 which would involve a mad scramble back after the final whistle, or if it goes to extra time, you're stranded. |
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« Last Edit: May 07, 2015, 11:00:34 by TaplowGreen »
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The Tall Controller
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« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2015, 12:53:34 » |
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Do you have evidence of this confirmation TG?
Thanks in advance.
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TaplowGreen
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« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2015, 13:15:58 » |
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Do you have evidence of this confirmation TG?
Thanks in advance.
"Evidence"? well nothing that would stand up in Court!  However the information was provided in a Plymouth Argyle fan forum by one of the admins, who's also a trainspotter/rail enthusiast who had taken it upon himself to speak to FGW▸ on behalf of a lot of fellow fans who are understandably cheesed off with the rail situation both regarding the semi final on Saturday and the final (should they get to Wembley), and this is further backed up by the information on FGW's own website so it's good enough for me, notwithstanding Grahame's speculation on "unlisted" engineering works. Obviously I'm happy to be corrected if this is wrong, however the response from FGW merely states that "we are unable to source additional services" - if the issue was engineering works then I would have expected them to say so? |
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Tim
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« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2015, 14:43:00 » |
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The last train eastbound from Plymouth is 2115. I've caught it once before. Bit of a joke how early it is really!
agreed. I am hopeful that the far west will see some improvements when the new AT300 trains arrive (2019, I think subject to bean counter and DfT» approval). As I understand it there will be a small total increase in vehicles over the current HST▸ , a 24% increase in the number of seats, a 5 minute journey time reduction to PLY» and greater flexibility afforded by a mixture of 9 and 5 car sets. Coupled with 158 released from the Bristol area, there is scope for a recast of the timetable to give better frequencies and hopefully a later last train. The other bugbear with the far west service is the fact that the first train from Paddington arrives rather to late, is being mitigated from 2017 apparently https://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/about-us/media-centre/2015/march/new-trains-for-devon-and-cornwall-passengers |
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