Overpriced Advance Fare Tiers and Bizzare Routeing... Should this be allowed?

[whole diary]

[thetrout]

I was looking at the opportunity for a Birthday Bash when I stumbled across this fantastic little anomaly...







So First Great Western have (as we know) higher Advance Fare Tiers than the most flexible Anytime Single Tickets... What's worse is they are actually selling them!!

I brought this to the attention of FGW^▸ (First Great Western) via Twitter and received the following response from Sam:

Hi Dominic. Sorry about this one. Normally our Advance Purchase tickets are cheaper. I'll log your comments. -Sam.

This did make me a little mift. Normally the tickets are cheaper? As far as I am concerned this is something that SHOULD NOT be able to happen. Maybe I'm overreacting... But lets look at this one:



That's really bad... The most expensive First Advance tier we learn is ^194 when an Anytime First Class Single is ^126.05 (Railcard Prices)

I started a twitter conversation with FGW Dave who said he logged my concerns and would get managers to check the price flows for the routes. As far as I am concerned it should not be allowed that FGW sell train specific tickets for a higher price than Any Train tickets... It just doesn't make sense and is a dubious practice.

A further conversation ensued with another Twitter Member who suggested I posted this example on RailForums (A political place I'd rather not venture too... Far too ehm... ok I'll be quiet on that one!) But he thought I might actually get somewhere with it.

I am of the personal belief that it is of public interest that ALL Train Operators are banned from selling Advance "Train Specific" Tickets when the most flexible the Like for Like ticket is cheaper than the tiers in question. Am I just making a mountain out of a molehill or is this something worthy of pressing with FGW and potentially the regulatory bodies / DfT^» (Department for Transport - about)?


Ok now onto my next issue...



What on earth is that all about... The sickening thing being that I would be liable for a Penalty Fare if I stayed on that first Ipswich Bound Train... But I am conscious of the "Through Train Rule" in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage so maybe if the first train I was on from Peterborough was the booked train, my ticket would remain valid despite an advertised change onto a second Ipswich train to change at Ipswich?

Even that one doesn't make sense... But the idea of being liable for a penalty fare when you're on a train going to the same place, but the ticket you have states you must change or be potentially liable does not sit well in my view...

[ChrisB]

Too much to write on an iphone, so I'll return to this tomorrow if my points haven't been covered by others, but I suspect that the range of Advance fares hasn't been discounted for your Railcard, but show full non-discounted prices in the box you highlight. Happy to be proved wrong with another similar screenshot without railcard added

[eightf48544]

Just more examples of the fare System not being fit for purpose!

[JayMac]

Too much to write on an iphone, so I'll return to this tomorrow if my points haven't been covered by others, but I suspect that the range of Advance fares hasn't been discounted for your Railcard, but show full non-discounted prices in the box you highlight. Happy to be proved wrong with another similar screenshot without railcard added

That does appear to be the case with the Mixing Deck booking engine showing the undiscounted range of 1st APs. If a fare is selectable though (not in thetrout's example as the box is greyed out) the correct railcard discounted price is offered.

That said, the highest tier is often more expensive than the most flexible walk up single and is offered for sale, as thetrout's first example shows.  Here's another example:

[BRIChris]

So First Great Western have (as we know) higher Advance Fare Tiers than the most flexible Anytime Single Tickets... What's worse is they are actually selling them!!

I have noticed this before and thought it'd be interesting to show that it isn't just FGW^▸ (First Great Western) doing this... This is a regular from XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)):



This screenshot raises 3 points for me...

1) As has already been mentioned, why is there an advance ticket that is more expensive than the flexible off-peak day single? Not only by 20p or so, but ^1.50 - on this fare, that's a price increase of 25%!

2) I'd rather shell out the extra 30p to not be restricted on the exact train that I travel on (there is an advance for ^5.60 but flexible off peak for ^5.90)! I suppose this route is a short one so perhaps they can't offer a massively cheaper fare as an advance, however considering the difference is so small, I wonder if there's any point it being there at all? It would be interesting to see how many people buy this ticket.

3) I don't think this applies to just advance fares. There is an anytime day single ticket that is cheaper than an off-peak day single (^7.90 vs ^8.90). I know this route so suspect it has something to do with valid times (there are certain off peak tickets valid after 9am, then the cheaper one after 10am), but even so - surely it is not logical in any sense to have this scenario presented to a customer. Unless anyone may know a reason why an anytime might be cheaper than an off peak?

Edit: Upon further investigation it seems the more expensive off-peak fare is an adult only fare without railcard discount. Still confusing though, I feel.

[JayMac]

Is this conspiracy or cock-up?

With numerous examples across various TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) (it's a subject I've seen raised on other forums and on social media) I lean toward it being a deliberate policy. Why? Because TOCs get all the revenue from an Advance Purchase fare when the journey is wholly on their train(s). If the fare is a walk-up one there's a very real chance they'll have to share the revenue with other operators. So, if anyone is fool (fooled by the system, not stupid) enough to buy one of these APs that are more expensive than the corresponding walk-up fare, that TOC is quids in.

[Chris from Nailsea]

I hesitate to use the word 'conspiracy', but I agree that it's probably a deliberate policy on the part of each individual train operating company (TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company)).

They are all private enterprises, tasked with minimising costs and maximising revenue - so they will each seek to offer tickets at the highest price they can, based on the availability of seats 'on the day' versus 'advance booking' discounts.

On a very simplistic level, that's market forces at work: take it or leave it - as they (not I) would say. 

[JayMac]

And the franchised TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) are free to engage in such tactics through all retail sources other than at stations. That is online, phone app, telesales.

At stations they have to abide by the the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement (part 6-30) which forms part of their Franchise Agreement.

So, at a station a ticket office clerk is obliged to be impartial. That impartiality effectively means they have to sell the cheapest through fare for the journey requested.

I've highlighted one word there, because there is no obligation on station staff to sell a combination of tickets (split ticketing) that may be cheaper than the cheapest through fare. That's for the customer to find out and specifically request.

I'd be less charitable in calling it 'market forces' though. I see it as gaming the system to gain advantage. But then should I really be overly concerned when I, as a customer, also game that system (within the rules) to my advantage?

[BRIChris]

Because TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) get all the revenue from an Advance Purchase fare when the journey is wholly on their train(s). If the fare is a walk-up one there's a very real chance they'll have to share the revenue with other operators. So, if anyone is fool (fooled by the system, not stupid) enough to buy one of these APs that are more expensive than the corresponding walk-up fare, that TOC is quids in.

They are all private enterprises, tasked with minimising costs and maximising revenue - so they will each seek to offer tickets at the highest price they can, based on the availability of seats 'on the day' versus 'advance booking' discounts.

That for me explains the advance fare that's 30p cheaper than the off-peak single then. I suppose in XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise))'s eyes it's worth a shot to get the whole ^5.60 rather than perhaps having to share ^5.90 with FGW^▸ (First Great Western) (I'm guessing)... and I do know people that would get that ticket because it's slightly cheaper, and I guess if you did get that ticket every day (perhaps?), over a year I guess that is a decent some of money you would be saving.

Thanks bignosemac and CfN, you learn something new every day as they say!

I'd be less charitable in calling it 'market forces' though. I see it as gaming the system to gain advantage. But then should I really be overly concerned when I, as a customer, also game that system (within the rules) to my advantage?

I'm not sure I am overly concerned with 'gaming the system' like you say providing it's in the rules. And if I'm not breaking any rules, than arguably I'm not doing anything wrong? Plus, if the TOC's can do it to us, then by virtue we're quite allowed / entitled to do it back? Or does that mean I am stooping to their level by doing so?

E.g. whenever I get the train anywhere mid to long distance, the first thing I do is look to split my journey. I know off by heart that I can save ~^9 on a walk up super off-peak day return from BRI^» (Bristol Temple Meads - next trains) to PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains) simply by splitting at DID^» (Didcot Parkway - next trains) (ensuring my train calls there, of course).

It did surprise me when I gave this advice to some friends, and they were more concerned with the amount of tickets they then had, as opposed to the money I'd saved them! 

[JayMac]

E.g. whenever I get the train anywhere mid to long distance, the first thing I do is look to split my journey. I know off by heart that I can save ~^9 on a walk up super off-peak day return from BRI^» (Bristol Temple Meads - next trains) to PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains) simply by splitting at DID^» (Didcot Parkway - next trains) (ensuring my train calls there, of course).

You can save another 50p by splitting again at Reading. 

And, if you wish to exploit it, there's a Routeing Guide easement that could save you nearly ^15 on the Super Off Peak Return fare from Bristol to London for a day trip.

[LiskeardRich]

I've noticed previously when you input a railcard it shows all railcard and non railcard prices. The higher prices above are non railcard prices.