Proposal to phase out paper tickets by 2020 - ongoing discussion

[whole diary]

[Brucey]

The Dutch system offers disposable smartcards for single-use (railway) tickets ... at a surcharge of ^1 per ticket.  The re-usable cards require a minimum credit balance of ^20 to enter the railway system or ^4 for a bus. Again, neither of these "features" give the passenger any benefits!

That's before we even consider the complexity of using Dutch Railway ticket machines.  Coins or Maestro/VPay debit cards only (the only mainstream UK^▸ (United Kingdom) bank offering Maestro is the Post Office, none offer VPay).  No notes accepted at machines (imagine paying a ^100 fare with coins).  Some machines at larger stations take Mastercard and Visa at a ^1 surcharge.  Surcharge of ^0.50 to use a ticket office if wishing to pay with notes or seek advice.

[lordgoata]

Sweden is similar, in Malmo you have the JoJo card which you load up with money and use it on the buses where it just deducts the fare for the journey (if I recall its a fixed fee that is valid for a certain amount of time, so if you get off one bus and straight onto another you are not charged twice if its within the time frame). Or you can use it to buy a paper ticket for the trip to Copenhagen, and I guess on the trains within Malmo, but I've only used the Copenhagen to Malmo service. Cards can be topped up in many places, including the 7-11 stores.

In Stockholm you have the SL access card for the commuter services, which you then load up with tickets, 24 hour, 3 day or 7 day if I recall. I much prefer the Malmo system as the money on the smart card doesn't run out, so its always there when I need it - where as Stockholm I have to load up every visit. Again these can be topped up many places, including news agents.

I guess these are similar to the Oyster^▸ (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services) system, but having never used it, I know nothing about it.

I'd be happy with either system, but I will not be happy to have to rely on my phone exclusively.

[Bmblbzzz]

With buses it's - or can be - comparatively easy, I think, because it's common to have a flat fare anyway. Lots of urban buses in various parts of Europe are like this - you cannot buy a ticket on the bus, you get it from a kiosk, a newsagent, supermarket or coin-operated machine at the stop. But it's also common in such places that most people use some sort of season ticket - much cheaper and more convenient. Of course there have to be one-off tickets as well.

But those are all still paper tickets. Replacing them with a smart card is essentially what London has done. I understand TfL^» (Transport for London - about) is now moving away from the Oyster^▸ (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services) towards contactless debit card payment - I guess this is cheaper for them because the admin and clearing is then the banks' responsibility! Trains have so many different ticket types and destinations, it's hard to see how a smart card or debit card system could work. It would be pretty much uncheckable, I think. Smart phone systems would bypass this problem but introduce others of accessibility, connectivity (signal) and battery life.

But as yet we don't know what is planned, if anything, it seems...

[TonyK]

I was in London in January, and used my contactless credit card throughout - no need for an Oyster^▸ (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services) card, but all the benefits of fare capping and cheaper tube fares. Plus, because it's a Santander card, I got 3% cash back, even on the buses. I registered with TfL^» (Transport for London - about) (free) and got access to a statement of all my travel.

I thought it a brilliant solution, one I wish Bristol would adopt now.

[JayMac]

Name change?

Contactless Bristol, Now! 

[TonyK]

Name change?

Contactless Bristol, Now! 

Steady there, BNM. Cost me money to do the deed poll thing. I only did it the time before I became FT,N! because I wanted a personalised number plate for my Cavalier, but couldn't afford "FTN 4T" at DVLA^▸ (Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency)'s prices. It proved much cheaper to change my name by deed poll to fit the car.

Yours sincerely,

B350 FVO (Mrs)

[eightf48544]

Whilst phasing out paperless tickets by 2020 still seems to bean aspiration, it is alleged that DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) will not mandate a system for TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) to use.

 The only criterion being they should be compatible, whatever that means.

Presumably if my nearest station is GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) I can buy my smartcard there and can use all over the country on non FGW^▸ (First Great Western) trains? Or will I have to get a smartphone and carry it around fully charged.

It is suggested that robots and AI will do away with jobs.  I've got a feeling that we are going to have to employ a lot more people to sort out the mess badly programmed machines and systems get us into.

[Bmblbzzz]

...
Presumably if my nearest station is GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) I can buy my smartcard there and can use all over the country on non FGW^▸ (First Great Western) trains? Or will I have to get a smartphone and carry it around fully charged.
...

Isn't the smartcard more likely to be your bank card?

[didcotdean]

The Dutch system offers disposable smartcards for single-use (railway) tickets ... at a surcharge of ^1 per ticket.  The re-usable cards require a minimum credit balance of ^20 to enter the railway system or ^4 for a bus. Again, neither of these "features" give the passenger any benefits!

Tripkey is more useful possibly these days for a one-off visitor than the OV Chipkaart although it has limited collection points and some drawbacks such as not easily being able to sort out an incomplete journey record. Interestingly this is the initiative of a private company who made an arrangement with NS.

The €20 fare deduction is a fair percentage of the maximum possible single train fare in the Netherlands. Here it would probably need to be over £100 to work on the same principle, ie a non-starter. However, this is really a by product of the relatively low use of credit cards - a UK^▸ (United Kingdom) version working on this principle could be linked to one.

I suspect a UK system would simply be loading a record of a journey bought onto the smart card, season or one-off, rather than PAYG^▸ (Pay as you go). Frankly this approach has been superseded already by mobile ticketing.

[caliwag]

Apologies if this has already been said! But there must be more important issues to concern him!

[AMLAG]

Will this thus mean the wholesale closure of National railway station Booking Offices,with resultant thousands of job losses, as has regretfully happened on the London Underground ?

[stuving]

Did anything actually happen today to make this two-year-old thread news again?

[TaplowGreen]

Will this thus mean the wholesale closure of National railway station Booking Offices,with resultant thousands of job losses, as has regretfully happened on the London Underground ?

There's a certain inevitability about that as more and more people buy online etc, and why queue up for a ticket if you can simply swipe your card/phone?

It's called change I'm afraid, and it's never easy, not that I wish to downplay the effect it will have on those concerned. If I'm honest I really can't remember the last time I used a ticket office - I renew my season ticket online and buy other tickets that way too, and yes I do know that some people prefer to buy them face to face but those numbers are dwindling, like in every other sector.

No doubt everyone will be out on strike if it looks like it's going to happen?

[John R]

Did anything actually happen today to make this two-year-old thread news again?

Recently it was announced that the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) was abandoning the initiative. So yes, there was a relevance to restarting the thread.

[Sixty3Closure]

Well as someone who doesn't own a mobile phone, smart or otherwise, that's a bit of a relief.

But then I'd still pay by cheque if I could......