Reversal at Bath Spa

[whole diary]

[grahame]

Can a train arriving into Bath Spa from the east (i.e. from Swindon or Westbury) turn round there? How easy is it / how long would it take?

[SandTEngineer]

The train would have to shunt forward to the crossovers at the West End and reverse there.  Although the lines between Bath (Oldfield Park) and Bathampton Junction are reversibly signalled the interlocking does not allow a train to reverse mid-section (well not a signalled one anyway).

[JayMac]

What purpose does the walking route serve between the running lines at Bath Spa?. I thought it was installed to allow HST^▸ (High Speed Train) drivers to change ends, which in the down direction sees the power car off the end of the platform with no space on the near side because of a bridge parapet.

[stuving]

The sectional appendix says much the same:

GW105 - UFFINGTON TO FORDGATE VIA BOX
BATH SPA
Down platform. A walkway is provided in the wide-way between the Down and Up Main lines for the use of train crews changing ends where trains are no longer than the equivalent of a 2 + 8 coach HST^▸ (High Speed Train) set.

[SandTEngineer]

What purpose does the walking route serve between the running lines at Bath Spa?. I thought it was installed to allow HST^▸ (High Speed Train) drivers to change ends, which in the down direction sees the power car off the end of the platform with no space on the near side because of a bridge parapet.

I think it may be there to allow Up Trains to terminate in the Down Platform and return West (which the signalling does allow).  When I get a spare moment I will check the signalling interlocking circuits to confirm.

[thetrout]

I believe Platform 1 can. Both platforms can be used bi bidirectionally and have been in the past during signal or points failures.

Platform 1 has a Banner Repeater on the East End near the Gateline with a smaller track level signal just before the bridge. On the West End of Platform 1 there is a Banner Repeater + 3 Aspect Signal. A CrossCountry set travels Empty Coaching Stock from Bristol - Bath and reverses there in the morning before heading off to Glasgow Central.

Reversal of a HST^▸ (High Speed Train) takes around 10 minutes but can be done in 7 at a serious push. I would not for a moment suggest this be considered standed operating practice.

Reversal of a 2 - 4 Car DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) takes considerably less time where we are looking at perhaps 3 - 6 minutes.

I have also seen HSTs terminated at Bath Spa due to faults and then be reversed there and taken back to Bristol on a good power car as ECS^▸ (Empty Coaching Stock) moves.

[grahame]

Many thanks so far.  Big help - I'm learning about the art of the possible again 

a) With the various comments, I'm understanding that a Bath terminator would need either to shunt to the west of the station, or (?) to run wrong-line (but it is bidirectional) to Bathampton (?).  Do I have that right?

b) New question(sorry).  Signalling wise, I know that a Chippenham (from the east) terminator can reverse by proceeding out just beyond Thingley ... its been done by taking the train just onto the TransWilts and so leaving the main lines clear.  Within signalling, can such a train proceed to Melksham on the single track and reverse at the platform there?

[JayMac]

I believe the signalling between Thingley and Bradford North requires a train that enters the section to leave it. Something to do with 'slots' and handing over from Swindon Panel (at Didcot TVSC^» (Thames Valley Signalling Centre - about)) to Westbury PSB^▸ (Power Signal Box).

Knowledge only based on SimSig mind!

[trainbuff]

Reversal of a HST^▸ (High Speed Train) takes around 10 minutes but can be done in 7 at a serious push. I would not for a moment suggest this be considered standed operating practice.

About reversal times with HST's. Although only 2+7, XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) HST's are timetabled (Both working and Public) to reverse at Gloucester in 7 minutes. This appears to be standard, though I believe FGW^▸ (First Great Western) drivers like to do a brake continuity check when they reverse HST's. This adds a few minutes to reversals but as no alteration has been made to the 'continuity' either by isolating brakes, adding/removing vehicle(s) or allowing the brake pressure to fall by switching off the Power Cars I do not think this brake check is strictly needed.

Just a thought above, but 7 minutes is a realistic time. The 10 minutes is overstated I believe and if this was a Rule Book issue why do XC Drivers NOT have to do it?

[stuving]

Reversal of a HST^▸ (High Speed Train) takes around 10 minutes but can be done in 7 at a serious push. I would not for a moment suggest this be considered standed operating practice.

The Timetable Planning Rules give a standard minimum reversal time (allowance) for HSTs on GW^▸ (Great Western) routes as 7 minutes, or 5 with a crew change. Some stations may have longer times specified.

That 7 minutes is the figure quoted at Bedminster, for example, but no reversal time is given for Bath Spa.

Turnround time is usually longer, though no general minimum is given for GW routes. For example, it is 20 minutes for an HST at Swindon - oddly, at Didcot Parkway it is only 7 minutes.

[phile]

Reversal Westbound needed today due bridge bash at Trowbridge

[SandTEngineer]

Still have to look at the signalling circuits for Eastbound reversal in the Westbound platform.  Both platforms can be used for terminating Eastbound trains and turning them back West but that is not the question that Grahame is asking

[grahame]

Still have to look at the signalling circuits for Eastbound reversal in the Westbound platform.  Both platforms can be used for terminating Eastbound trains and turning them back West but that is not the question that Grahame is asking

Exactly right ... I'm looking to learn where trains headed out from Swindon via Chippenham can turn back.    At-platform, the first places I know are Bristol Temple Meads and Westbury.  I think it's also possible at Thingley Junction, between Bradford Junction and Trowbridge, and at Bathampton.   The big questions are Bath and Melksham.

[SandTEngineer]

Now had a look at the signalling interlocking controls and respond as follows:

Bath: Turnback Westbound to Eastbound in Down platform at Bath:  No.  Have to shunt to Bristol side of crossovers at West end of station and then return to Down platform before heading East on the Down line towards Bathampton.  Same principle for the Up platform.

This is to do with the way the reversible signalling controls work.

Melksham: Turnback on branch at Melksham station:  Yes.  Possible in both directions (from Thingley Junction or from Bradford Junction).  This section of line is fitted with an axle counter so trains can be counted in and out in either direction at either end.

Edit (19/02/2015): The statements above represent the situation as it was with the records that I have access to dated 2002.  It is possible that things may have changed since then but I would of become aware of that through other ways so I am confident what I have stated above is correct.

[grahame]

Now had a look at the signalling interlocking controls and respond as follows:

Bath:

Melksham:

Many thanks - helps learn the art of the possible; starting to think about life in the IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) age and see them against our passenger flows in Wiltshire.