Fares during bustitution

[whole diary]

[TaplowGreen]

Not sure if this has been discussed before but I am surprised that TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) seem to charge the same price for services which are disrupted by engineering works/bustitution, sometimes involving 2 or more changes, as normal direct trains - surely there should be some fare reduction in respect of the inconvenience/extended journey times?

[LiskeardRich]

For intermediate journeys on Cornish branchlines I've yet to see anything but a free journey. No facilities on the station, no ticket check getting on the bus, or during journey, and the bus driver has no ticket selling facilities.

[grahame]

I don't think this has been raised before (certainly not recently), and it's something I've mused over.

Last Sunday, I was on a substitute bus from Bridgend to Neath.  Crew of three (Driver, Train Manager, Buffet Staff Person) on the 125 in from Cardiff.   There were three or four First staff at Bridgend, two coaches on to Swansea direct, and one on via Port Talbot and Neath. And I think the train laid over at Bridgend for nearly an hour.

So to run the extra services, First needed to employ (directly or indirectly) a lot more staff, and run three extra pieces of transport - so the operation must have been more expensive than simply running the train on through. Furthermore, we got a longer (a lot longer on the Neath via Port Talbot coach) journey, and more time to sit in what were quite comfortable seats. Bus replacement also puts people off travelling, significantly, and on a  journey that's part substituted that will result in a loss of traffic - and thus a loss of revenue on the rail part too.

I happen to agree with you, TaplowGreen, that as far as the person wanting to get from "A" to "B" is concerned, having to get on a slow bus for part of the journey results in an inferior service, and it feels like it's unfair to have to pay the same amount as you would pay otherwise.   But on the other hand you could argue that, commercially, the bus is more expensive to provide for fewer people and it should be considered to be a premium (peak) service, off peak services and prices being charged only where there is spare capacity that otherwise would be running empty.

As a matter of interest, what happens to Advance fares during bustitution - are any available on the train and ongoing bus?

[Brucey]

As a matter of interest, what happens to Advance fares during bustitution - are any available on the train and ongoing bus?

Back in 2008/2009, I was buying Cosham - Bristol TM^‡(resolve)/Clifton Down advance fares, even though Westbury - Bristol TM was being operated by buses.

I have seen some other cases where advance fares are not available, e.g. on Greater Anglia between Cambridge and London.  Whether an omission or deliberate, I cannot say.

[ChrisB]

Quite often removed, especially if the diversion involves use of other TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) services. They rightly insist on their RSP %, which they win't get from Advance fares. Chiltern quite often kill Advances from Virgin if carrying Their tickets/pax, for example.

TOCs will get compensation from NR^» (Network Rail - home page) for their works, I believe. Whether it is sufficient to cover the extra costs you mention, ??

[thetrout]

I've had many dramas on the subject of Rail Replacement Buses.

I have seen some other cases where advance fares are not available, e.g. on Greater Anglia between Cambridge and London.  Whether an omission or deliberate, I cannot say.

That's assuming the GreaterAnglia Replacement Buses will operate as planned and advertised at all...

I've secured First Class Advance on Rail Replacement Before for Frome - Southend Victoria. Even in cases where those buses were covering both FGW^▸ (First Great Western) and GreaterAnglia (Bath Spa - Frome and Billericay - Rayleigh) on the same journey.


As for Rail Replacement around the Bath / Westbury / Bristol Areas. It's generally considered a free ride in the late evenings as staff do not want to get into confrontation with passengers for safety reasons and for the journeys taking much longer than the trains do. It was strongly suggested off the record that this practice is encouraged by an area manager also for safety and wellbeing reasons of staff.

That being said there are numerous occasions where the Buses have not followed the correct routes and called at all the stations. This is especially true for the Freshford and Avoncliff Sections.

Last Week I had a rail replacement driver attempt to refuse travel because she was instructed to check tickets and came across a ticket she didn't understand. So went with a blanket "If in doubt, don't allow" ... The ticket in question being a season ticket. When she told me to buy a new ticket (This being Trowbridge with no open ticket office or TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) at 1AM) I asked her where I could get one. She told me the Ticket Machines. I explained they were removed for vandalism reasons in 2008. A tit for tat conversation started and it became more and more obvious the driver was trying to refuse because she didn't want to drive to Westbury and Frome as the coach depot was back in Cheltenham

Whilst I have absolutely no issue with ticket checks being carried out on Rail Replacement Services. I do have issue with being told a ticket is not valid when it is. Also with a driver checking tickets that they do not understand so reject them as not valid. Finally with drivers suggesting you must hold tickets to travel from stations where there is no ability to purchase one beforehand. As for not wanting to complete the full assigned route or operating the correct route... That's out of order.

As for an occasion where a driver attempted to refuse me travel and I quoted the NRCoC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage) at around 02:30AM in Shenfield with a GA^▸ (Greater Anglia) Replacement Service. I bumped into him around 3 months later and he could not stop apologising. He had checked with his superiors and made a note of what I had said after being unable to purchase a ticket before travel. They had confirmed that I was in the right. The driver allowed travel regardless but only after 5 minutes of kicking up a fuss. Naturally I also apologised if I got unnecessarily cross and/or got anyone in trouble. He said I had nothing to apologise for as I was reasonable, civil and polite. We shook hands and again I made comment that I hope no-one got into bother over it.

Just some interjection for experience. Rail Replacement is a dark, murky world where things are often not as they seem and should be...

[Trowres]

On Sunday 25th Jan there is bustitution between Romsey and Salisbury.

With careful coercion, the National Rail journey planner reveals that a Brockenhurst-Melksham journey could  be done as follows:
Brockenhurst dep 10:34
via Southampton, Romsey,(bus), Salisbury, Westbury
Melksham arr 13:52
Journey time 3h18 cost ^35.30 return

However, the default options produced by the NR^» (Network Rail - home page) OJP^▸ (Online Journey Planner) were:-
Brockenhurst dep 10:09
via Basingstoke, Salisbury, Westbury
Melksham arr 13:52
Journey time 3h43 cost ^67.70 (various singles - no return fare offered)

OR
Brockenhurst dep 11:57
via Basingstoke, Reading, Swindon
Melksham arr 15:18
Journey time 3h21 cost ^52 return

Later in the day a Basingstoke-Salisbury-Westbury route was awarded the ^35.30 return fare, presumably because this involved a direct Basingstoke-Westbury service (the Waterloo-Bristol) whereas the other examples required a change at Salisbury.

So the issues here?
1. Not being offered the option of a faster, cheaper journey with a bus element
2. Not being offered the "normal" fares for the suggested diversionary routes
3. What would a booking office sell if I asked for a Sunday journey?
4. If Sunday was a return leg and for which i had a return ticket at ^35.30, could I be sure it would be accepted on all the trains offered?
5. Why did the OJP make such a mess when it handled Brockenhurst to Westbury much better, providing the buses and also the through Basingstoke-Westbury service, all with a ^27.90 return fare? (I presume Melksham uses Westbury as a routeing point for the purposes of permitted routes...?)

[grahame]

So the issues here?
1. Not being offered the option of a faster, cheaper journey with a bus element
2. Not being offered the "normal" fares for the suggested diversionary routes
3. What would a booking office sell if I asked for a Sunday journey?
4. If Sunday was a return leg and for which i had a return ticket at ^35.30, could I be sure it would be accepted on all the trains offered?
5. Why did the OJP^▸ (Online Journey Planner) make such a mess when it handled Brockenhurst to Westbury much better, providing the buses and also the through Basingstoke-Westbury service, all with a ^27.90 return fare? (I presume Melksham uses Westbury as a routeing point for the purposes of permitted routes...?)

Manned booking offices are 'required' to offer you the lowest fare for the journey you're making (but not splitting, tickets that go further but are cheaper, etc) whereas vending machines have no such duty on them. There was a potential (partial?) change in the pipeline that we were discussing on that a few days back.   I am unclear as to what the obligation is on online systems, and I suspect they are simply required to sell you / offer you a valid ticket, rather than the lowest price valid ticket - indeed it could be argued that (with credit card and delivery charges) some of them never offer the lowest price.

Having said that, it's a mess.  Sort out the mess (and that may means some reduction in the plethora of different validity terms), and the threat is that the money passengers save by buying the lowest possible fare would need to be made up some other how by the train operators.  But as it stands - witness the example the other day - a passenger using what he believed to be the lowest fare available (and certainly a good value and valid one) was held up for a considerable period at Paddington.

The answer to "what would have happened if I had used / attempted to use ..." lies too much at times in the lap of the gods. On a Sunday with diversions / buses, chances are that you would have been accepted via any reasonable route.   Melksham to Swansea via Gloucester was offered / accepted without question the other week for me when the Severn Tunnel was closed, and yet (checking just now) "no valid fare" is offered for that route for today.

From a manned ticket office, I suspect you would be offered / sold the 35.30 fare ('via Salisbury") if purchased for a Sunday and purchased within the area where the ticket clerk knows the geography.  And I suspect that the default for a remote sale would be the 52.00 fare ("not London")

[GBM]

During the recent Penzance - Truro blockade at Hayle, Revenue Inspectors were at Truro and Penzance, plus frequent visits to intermediate stations.  There was also a person with a portable ticket machine at all stops.
Bus passengers were (of course), not permitted to travel, despite many trying, and much argument at times.  They couldn't understand why the bus was a train and not a bus!

[LiskeardRich]

During the recent Penzance - Truro blockade at Hayle, Revenue Inspectors were at Truro and Penzance, plus frequent visits to intermediate stations.  There was also a person with a portable ticket machine at all stops.
Bus passengers were (of course), not permitted to travel, despite many trying, and much argument at times.  They couldn't understand why the bus was a train and not a bus!

The bus passengers having paid considerably more for their journeys as well.

A Redruth to Truro return with First by bus is ^7.50. A train ticket Is ^4.00 return or thereabouts minus railcard discount. Sometime last year when the trains were stopped suddenly, FGW^▸ (First Great Western) had arranged ticket acceptance on First buses. I wondered how many people planning on taking the bus would buy a train ticket as would be the same bus, saving a few quid.(^5 saving with a railcard vs bus ticket)

[TaplowGreen]

Ironically (and to get back on track!) I can remember a number of fellow passengers saying to me that when FGW^▸ (First Great Western) were running buses to Tiverton Parkway from Plymouth (and vice versa), the journey to Paddington was actually quicker!

I do know quite a few people from Plymouth/East Cornwall who will drive to Tivvy, leave the car there and get the train to Paddington for precisely that reason.

[LiskeardRich]

Ironically (and to get back on track!) I can remember a number of fellow passengers saying to me that when FGW^▸ (First Great Western) were running buses to Tiverton Parkway from Plymouth (and vice versa), the journey to Paddington was actually quicker!

I do know quite a few people from Plymouth/East Cornwall who will drive to Tivvy, leave the car there and get the train to Paddington for precisely that reason.

I've done that before, knocks close to an hour off of travelling time from my house in Redruth.

[grahame]

I'm travelling Melksham to Swansea, again, on a Sunday evening.  And once again, the journey is scheduled to take an hour longer than it would on a Monday evening due to trains being replaced by buses for part of the journey.  Ironic, really, when there's more long distance travellers on a Sunday evening than a Monday evening.   When I booked, the Advance fares were all greyed out (not sure I would have gone for them anyway, as I'm looking for a return) ... the only return tickets being offered an off peak DAY return and an anytime PERIOD return.

[TaplowGreen]

I'm travelling Melksham to Swansea, again, on a Sunday evening.  And once again, the journey is scheduled to take an hour longer than it would on a Monday evening due to trains being replaced by buses for part of the journey.  Ironic, really, when there's more long distance travellers on a Sunday evening than a Monday evening.   When I booked, the Advance fares were all greyed out (not sure I would have gone for them anyway, as I'm looking for a return) ... the only return tickets being offered an off peak DAY return and an anytime PERIOD return.

............and presumably the fare is the same despite the inconvenience and extended journey?