Night tubes will lead to a reduction in night buses?

[whole diary]

[grahame]

http://www.london24.com/news/transport/tfl_rubbish_claims_1_000_buses_will_be_scrapped_to_pay_for_night_tube_1_3923536

TfL^» (Transport for London - about) rubbish claims 1,000 buses will be scrapped to pay for Night Tube

TfL have said claims by a transport union up to 1,000 night buses will be scrapped to pay for the Night Tube as ^incorrect and nonsensical^.

A good and interesting discussion.   

With zero knowledge on the passenger flows / needs ... I can't help thinking that if there's enough traffic to run tubes at night, then some of the buses that run along the same routes will then be rather over-supplied and a reduction might make some sense.   Reading between the lines of the article, I suspect that both TfL and the unions appreciate this, but they're taking positions at the moment.

[TaplowGreen]

http://www.london24.com/news/transport/tfl_rubbish_claims_1_000_buses_will_be_scrapped_to_pay_for_night_tube_1_3923536

TfL^» (Transport for London - about) rubbish claims 1,000 buses will be scrapped to pay for Night Tube

TfL have said claims by a transport union up to 1,000 night buses will be scrapped to pay for the Night Tube as ^incorrect and nonsensical^.

A good and interesting discussion.   

With zero knowledge on the passenger flows / needs ... I can't help thinking that if there's enough traffic to run tubes at night, then some of the buses that run along the same routes will then be rather over-supplied and a reduction might make some sense.   Reading between the lines of the article, I suspect that both TfL and the unions appreciate this, but they're taking positions at the moment.

Buses will still be needed south of the river where few Tube trains (or taxis!) run!

[Chris from Nailsea]

From the BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page):

Night Tube 'won't break even until 2033' says TSSA^» (Transport Salaried Staffs' Association - about) union

The Night Tube will lose ^19.6m in its first year and not break even until 2033, according to the TSSA transport union.

The organisation said it had seen official London Underground (LU) meeting minutes stating the service would not break even for 17 years.

London Underground and the Mayor of London's office are yet to respond to the TSSA's claims

The Tube will run its 24-hour service at weekends, from 12 September.

The Night Tube will provide services on the Piccadilly, Victoria, Central, Jubilee and Northern lines.

When the service was announced London Mayor Boris Johnson said: "This is just the first stage in the opening up of the Tube to be 24 hours."

LU managing director Mike Brown said: "The new service will boost jobs and will benefit the economy by hundreds of millions of pounds."

TSSA general secretary Manuel Cortes said: "Mr Johnson wants everyone to think everything in the garden is rosy before he disappears back to the House of Commons in May. In truth, he will leave Londoners with a massive financial headache and year-on-year inflation, plus tube fare rises, to make the Night Tube break even in 17 years time."

[TaplowGreen]

From the BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page):

Night Tube 'won't break even until 2033' says TSSA^» (Transport Salaried Staffs' Association - about) union

The Night Tube will lose ^19.6m in its first year and not break even until 2033, according to the TSSA transport union.

The organisation said it had seen official London Underground (LU) meeting minutes stating the service would not break even for 17 years.

London Underground and the Mayor of London's office are yet to respond to the TSSA's claims

The Tube will run its 24-hour service at weekends, from 12 September.

The Night Tube will provide services on the Piccadilly, Victoria, Central, Jubilee and Northern lines.

When the service was announced London Mayor Boris Johnson said: "This is just the first stage in the opening up of the Tube to be 24 hours."

LU managing director Mike Brown said: "The new service will boost jobs and will benefit the economy by hundreds of millions of pounds."

TSSA general secretary Manuel Cortes said: "Mr Johnson wants everyone to think everything in the garden is rosy before he disappears back to the House of Commons in May. In truth, he will leave Londoners with a massive financial headache and year-on-year inflation, plus tube fare rises, to make the Night Tube break even in 17 years time."

Utter rubbish.

[devon_metro]

Whenever i've used my local night bus (actually just a 24 hours service) which has a 10 minute frequency it is always completed packed even at 2/3/4am. Incredible really. It broadly follows the route of the central line so i'm quite looking forward to the journey time reducing by well over half.

[ellendune]

So when will they get to do track maintenance?

[grahame]

So when will they get to do track maintenance?

https://www.tfl.gov.uk/campaign/tube-improvements/the-future-of-the-tube/night-tube

From the early hours of Saturday 12 September 2015, Londoners and visitors to the Capital will be able to travel on the Jubilee, Victoria and most of the Piccadilly, Central and Northern tube lines all night on Fridays and Saturdays.

[snip]

We will also continue to deliver upgrade and maintenance work, and when possible we plan to do this overnight between Sunday and Thursday on the Night Tube lines.

[ellendune]

That's OK then

[TaplowGreen]

TfL^» (Transport for London - about) should be applauded for this imaginative and much needed (overdue) initiative....there will always be Luddites and cynics who will try to find a reason not to do something about an issue......if they had prevailed in the 19th century we would never have had a Great Western railway.... but this recognises that London is a 24 hour city and not everyone works 9-5....additionally it will provide a safer & quicker way for people to get home than relying on buses/unlicensed taxis etc....it will be a lifeline for often poorly paid night workers, cleaners etc who currently have a real struggle to get to/from work, and it is vital for the London economy overall.

Lets hope its full speed ahead for the extra runway at Heathrow too! 

[Surrey 455]

I'm jealous that this is happening after I moved away from West Drayton. Although the N9 got me nearly home then a 15 minute walk, the Piccadilly line would be much quicker and probably more frequent. Like many others here I now find I have to clock watch to avoid missing my last train.

We had an area works evening out in Docklands on Friday and I had to leave at 11pm not long after the DJ had started so that I could get to Waterloo for my last train. Would have been nice to stay longer and catch up with a few people I used to work with. The party was just getting going at that point. 

[Super Guard]

From the BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page):

Night Tube 'won't break even until 2033' says TSSA^» (Transport Salaried Staffs' Association - about) union

The Night Tube will lose ^19.6m in its first year and not break even until 2033, according to the TSSA transport union.

The organisation said it had seen official London Underground (LU) meeting minutes stating the service would not break even for 17 years.

London Underground and the Mayor of London's office are yet to respond to the TSSA's claims

The Tube will run its 24-hour service at weekends, from 12 September.

The Night Tube will provide services on the Piccadilly, Victoria, Central, Jubilee and Northern lines.

When the service was announced London Mayor Boris Johnson said: "This is just the first stage in the opening up of the Tube to be 24 hours."

LU managing director Mike Brown said: "The new service will boost jobs and will benefit the economy by hundreds of millions of pounds."

TSSA general secretary Manuel Cortes said: "Mr Johnson wants everyone to think everything in the garden is rosy before he disappears back to the House of Commons in May. In truth, he will leave Londoners with a massive financial headache and year-on-year inflation, plus tube fare rises, to make the Night Tube break even in 17 years time."

Utter rubbish.

You have seen the minutes have you?

I guess while it may make a loss, as has been discussed elsewhere, if it's in the public interest and the benefit to the economy is greater, then loss shouldn't matter in public services.

I agree with you that they should hurry up with the third runway at Heathrow already.

[Chris from Nailsea]

From the BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page):

Finalised London night-time Tube map revealed


The Night Tube is set to begin on five lines on 12 September

The finalised map for London's night-time Tube service has been revealed.

All-night weekend services are set to begin on 12 September on sections of the Central, Jubilee, Northern, Piccadilly and Victoria lines.

However, the union Aslef has already announced its members will strike for 24 hours on 8 July from 21:30 BST over pay and conditions for the service.

District organiser Finn Brennan said drivers would have to work unlimited night shifts for no extra pay. 'It's easy enough to produce a map, but if London Underground management want to have an all-night service in September, then they need to sit down and negotiate a fair deal for the staff they expect to provide it," he said. "Aslef aren't opposed to all-night services but they have to be introduced in a way that is fair and protects the work-life balance of the hard working staff."

The RMT^▸ (National Union of Rail, Maritime & Transport Workers) and TSSA^» (Transport Salaried Staffs' Association - about) unions are also balloting their members for industrial action over the same issue.

Gareth Powell, from London Underground, said: "As well as making life easier for people, the night Tube will also boost London's night-time economy - supporting thousands of jobs and stimulating hundreds of millions of pounds in economic growth."

The hope is that all-night services will be extended to the London Overground in 2017 as well as the Metropolitan, Circle, District and Hammersmith and City lines. A round-the-clock service is planned for the Docklands Light Railway by 2021.

[Tim]

With zero knowledge on the passenger flows / needs [/i]... I can't help thinking that if there's enough traffic to run tubes at night, then some of the buses that run along the same routes will then be rather over-supplied and a reduction might make some sense.   Reading between the lines of the article, I suspect that both TfL^» (Transport for London - about) and the unions appreciate this, but they're taking positions at the moment.

I am inclined to think that the night tube will lead to more night time economic activity and that the demand for night buses will therefore generally rise - although routes and frequencies of specific night buses may need to be optimised. 

[ChrisB]

Night Buses tend to follow the route of the tube lines. With these tubes running all night, there'll be less demand, that's for sure. But whether they'd amend frequency/routes just for Friday/Saturday nights, I doubt it's worth it.

[TaplowGreen]

I guess it could be argued that night buses (certainly the inner London/Inner suburban routes) existed to some extent only due to the Tube shutting down early anyway?

I think it's a huge step forward in a 24 hour city.