Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp

[whole diary]

[Noggin]

It will still be a decent earner even if the council doesn't own it. The Community Infrastructure Levy for inner Bristol is £70 per square metre. That's around £5000 for a modest dwelling, or £55 million for 11,000 modest dwellings. Then there's all that lovely council tax.

Interesting, isn't it - in the fifties and sixties, councils were keen to knock down houses to build light industrial units and roads; any prestigious city was proud of how their really big road systems connected the widget factories to low-density worker hutches in the suburbs. Now they've realised that by replacing those roads and now-derelict sheds with high-density houses, they can raise more revenue and make highly-desirable and liveable places; places that are, in many ways, similar to what was there before... If only someone could think of a way to allow people to move in and out of these areas without needing a car, the job would be a good 'un...

https://youtu.be/zyeMFSzPgGc

Yup - the irony is that in the brave new world of the 21st Century, those who the City Fathers gifted low density social housing on the edge of town are now social exiles with, unless they own a car, limited opportunities for education, retail, entertainment and employment.

Meanwhile the middle classes gentrify the inner-city terraces that were once considered slums, and pay fortunes for the sort of high-density high-rises that were so disastrous as social housing. Gone is the imperative to have a driveway and garage, a central location or short walk to public transport is quite enough for most, as they realise that a car club and occasional weekend rental are far more economical, as almost everything can be delivered.

I wonder how long it will be before the high-rise blocks creep along the riverside opposite Paintworks? Whoever owns the fruit market site must be rubbing their hands together in glee at the prospect of how much it could be worth once the Royal Mail site is developed.

What the current crop of

[Red Squirrel]

The figure for Central Bristol in the Bristol Local Plan Review - February 2018 is 13,500 homes, in Bristol City Centre, Temple Quarter, St Philip’s Marsh and Western Harbour (Cumberland Basin to you and me). Of these, SPM^▸ (St Philip's Marsh (Bristol depot)) (oops!) looks to be the largest site, but I find it hard to keep up with all the double-accounting. Presumably the numbers will change when Marv finally drops his long-telegraphed 'A' bomb...

[Red Squirrel]

Lots of information about the Bristol Heat Network here, for anyone as is interested:

https://tools.smartsteep.eu/wiki/Bristol_-_Heat_Network_Assessment

[TonyK]

It isn't as thoroughly thought through as I had hoped, but that's a clever idea. Heat networks work in places like Russia, and Combined Heat and Power has much to commend it. There is a precedent within Bristol, as some of the high rise flats have a central boiler. That was never popular with the tenants, who complained of high charges, and often (illegally) installed portable calor gas heaters. A caveat though - biomass? If by that we mean something like the New Earth Solutions plant in Avonmouth, turning household waste into energy, then fine. But if it is like Drax power station, chasing subsidies by burning imported kiln-dried wooden pellets, then no.

[Red Squirrel]

The next phase of this junction improvement kicks in on 21 Oct 2018:



Full details are here Note that the 904 Brislington Park & Ride service will call at Redcliffe Way and will no longer stop on Temple Gate.

[grahame]

The next phase of this junction improvement kicks in on 21 Oct 2018

Looks like traffic coming south down Temple Way wanting to head west on Redcliffe Way can't.  Isn't that the very journey the flyover used to provide?   Not really needed now??  Not sure if that was possible in previous phases either - I normally just hoof it from Temple Meads ...

[martyjon]

The next phase of this junction improvement kicks in on 21 Oct 2018

Looks like traffic coming south down Temple Way wanting to head west on Redcliffe Way can't.  Isn't that the very journey the flyover used to provide?   Not really needed now??  Not sure if that was possible in previous phases either - I normally just hoof it from Temple Meads ...

They can, travel south over south bound Bath Road bridge do a u-turn onto the north bound Bath Road bridge and thence to Redcliffe Way. A two way flyover over the alignment of the "temporary" flyover would have been the best plan but you know Bristol Politicians, can't see any further than the end of their noses.

[Red Squirrel]

You've hit the nail very squarely on the head there, grahame.

The route you describe formed part of the Inner Circuit Road, and the Tempry Flyover was to have been the precursor to a much bigger junction which was to be developed as this road was enlarged. In the 1970s it slowly began to dawn in the City Parents (well OK; Fathers in them days) that most of the through traffic they were trying to divert around the city centre was actually quite capable of bypassing the city altogether, mostly via the M5. Others had spotted that the motorway across Queen Square was not as lovely as they had first hoped, nor was the racetrack around The Centre. So ever so quietly they killed the Inner Circuit Road using the Death of a Thousand Cuts. Local traffic now goes a bit further south via Temple Gate, and then heads west along York or Clarence Road (instead of roaring past St Mary Redcliffe church). It was also noted that surrounding Bristol's great ecclesiastical masterpiece with dual carriageways on two sides had not enhanced its setting. One of these - Redcliffe Way - is now in its overdue death throes, leaving the other (Redcliff Hill) looking a bit oversized for a road that connects a smallish car park at one end to an elevated motorway that (thankfully) was never built at the other. It can't be long before that too becomes nothing but a bad memory...

[martyjon]

You've hit the nail very squarely on the head there, grahame.

The route you describe formed part of the Inner Circuit Road, and the Tempry Flyover was to have been the precursor to a much bigger junction which was to be developed as this road was enlarged. In the 1970s it slowly began to dawn in the City Parents (well OK; Fathers in them days) that most of the through traffic they were trying to divert around the city centre was actually quite capable of bypassing the city altogether, mostly via the M5. Others had spotted that the motorway across Queen Square was not as lovely as they had first hoped, nor was the racetrack around The Centre. So ever so quietly they killed the Inner Circuit Road using the Death of a Thousand Cuts. Local traffic now goes a bit further south via Temple Gate, and then heads west along York or Clarence Road (instead of roaring past St Mary Redcliffe church). It was also noted that surrounding Bristol's great ecclesiastical masterpiece with dual carriageways on two sides had not enhanced its setting. One of these - Redcliffe Way - is now in its overdue death throes, leaving the other (Redcliff Hill) looking a bit oversized for a road that connects a smallish car park at one end to an elevated motorway that (thankfully) was never built at the other. It can't be long before that too becomes nothing but a bad memory...

I thought the Inner Circuit Road was killed off when sime pillock on BCC^» (Bristol City Council - about) recommended that a shopping centre be built bisecting the road and merging a number of traffic flows into one only for the merged traffic flow to be split further on and causing daily gridlock in the morning and evening peaks.

.... the motorway across Queen Square was not as lovely as they had first hoped ....

Yes, I remember that, but didn't the experts shut off the motorway and divert the outbound traffic around the north and east perimeter roads with inbound traffic round the south and west perimeter roads making those roads a one way square rounabout.

[Red Squirrel]

I thought the Inner Circuit Road was killed off when sime pillock on BCC^» (Bristol City Council - about) recommended that a shopping centre be built bisecting the road and merging a number of traffic flows into one only for the merged traffic flow to be split further on and causing daily gridlock in the morning and evening peaks.

Well not really - the eastern half, from St James Barton to Temple Meads, is still very much in evidence as a major road, despite the diversion around Cabot Circus. Surely the thing that killed it deader as a Ring Road was - well - removing half of it? The junction at the end of the M32, inevitably, was always heavily loaded; I'm not sure we can reliably state that that the diversion has made things worse. Increasing car ownership has probably been more significant.

.... the motorway across Queen Square was not as lovely as they had first hoped ....

Yes, I remember that, but didn't the experts shut off the motorway and divert the outbound traffic around the north and east perimeter roads with inbound traffic round the south and west perimeter roads making those roads a one way square rounabout.

No; buses went round the Square for a period but other traffic was diverted down The Grove. This was all done in the context of an overall plan to downgrade the western half of the Inner Circuit Road, which (as I alluded elsewhere) had blighted some of Bristol's most historic areas.

[martyjon]

Well not really - the eastern half, from St James Barton to Temple Meads, is still very much in evidence as a major road, despite the diversion around Cabot Circus. Surely the thing that killed it deader as a Ring Roads was - well - removing half of it? The junction at the end of the M32, inevitably, was always heavily loaded; I'm not sure we can reliably state that that the diversion has made things worse. Increasing car ownership has probably been more significant.

Before Cabot Circus you had traffic from SJB to M32, OM & OMU, now we have the same plus OM/OMU to M32 merging into the previous 3 traffic flows with god knows how many traffic lights and remember we had a pedestrian bridge over the ICR by the Spectrum Building which has been replaced by 2 sets of pedestrian lights and then there is the myriad of pedestrian lights around The Bearpit which slows traffic down despite GF^▸ (Ground Frame)'s 20mph speed limit.

No; buses went round the Square for a period but other traffic was diverted down The Grove. This was all done in the context of an overall plan to downgrade the western half of the Inner Circuit Road, which (as I alluded elsewhere) had blighted some of Bristol's most historic areas.

There is no access to many of the premises around Queen Square other than their front doors and whilst inbound traffic was recommended to use The Grove, outbound traffic still preferred to use the square because it was quicker than waiting for a gap in inbound traffic from the square to turn right into Prince Street and at the Bascule Bridge waiting to turn right out of The Grove by The Severn Shed.

[Red Squirrel]

Before Cabot Circus you had traffic from SJB to M32, OM & OMU, now we have the same plus OM/OMU to M32 merging into the previous 3 traffic flows with god knows how many traffic lights and remember we had a pedestrian bridge over the ICR by the Spectrum Building which has been replaced by 2 sets of pedestrian lights and then there is the myriad of pedestrian lights around The Bearpit which slows traffic down despite GF^▸ (Ground Frame)'s 20mph speed limit.

I can't claim to completely follow what you're saying here, but to pick you up on a couple of points:

1. When the M32/Bond Street junction was re-engineered as part of the Cabot Circus development, they clearly shifted the emphasis to prioritise traffic coming on and off the M32. That doesn't strike me as necessarily a mad thing to do.
2. Pedestrian bridges are generally out of favour these days because they are ugly, intimidating, and difficult to make accessible; they're also not much good for cyclists.
3. George Ferguson cut through the usual Bristol miasma of petty political games and implemented 20mph speed limits (though notably not on the roads we are discussing), but it was hardly an aberration - they're in many cities and towns these days.
4. The Bear Pit (St James Barton roundabout) was signalised in the 1990s to relieve congestion, and then changed later to allow pedestrians to cross at street level; many people find the environment of the Pit rather intimidating and would rather stay at ground level. I think that's understandable, isn't it?

There is no access to many of the premises around Queen Square other than their front doors and whilst inbound traffic was recommended to use The Grove, outbound traffic still preferred to use the square because it was quicker than waiting for a gap in inbound traffic from the square to turn right into Prince Street and at the Bascule Bridge waiting to turn right out of The Grove by The Severn Shed.

I don't recognise the scenario you describe. You've tested my filing system though! Here in front of me I have the leaflet describing the closure of the Square to through traffic on 17 May 1992, along with a helpful diagram showing it accessed in much the way it is today, i.e. no use at all as a through route (but a very lovely place to play frisbee on a sunny day).

[Bmblbzzz]

St James Barton

You are possibly the only person in the entire world, other than council planners, who uses that name!
Though of course there are people who think that

The Bearpit

refers to a cosy little establishment in Old Market...

[SandTEngineer]

Why is it that Bristol is one of those cities that never finishes its road network.  We have the same problem down here in (not so today) Sunny Plymouth!  They are just about to start trying to cure the latest pinch point but it will only end up creating another one somewhere else instead.....

Sorry to hijack your Bristol thread but there are similarities.

[Red Squirrel]

The Bearpit

refers to a cosy little establishment in Old Market...

For the benefit of any readers who need a little explanation:

Bristol Bear Bar is the UK^▸ (United Kingdom)’s only bespoke bear bar. The venue is a must see for all Bears and non Bears as the atmosphere and staff are friendly and always happy to welcome the many national and international visitors who visit.

Grrrrr-owl!