Christmas/New Year peak restrictions

[whole diary]

[devon_metro]

Could they not just trick the machines into thinking it was a weekend where peak restrictions don't apply?

[ChrisB]

They should have put notices on the machines advising of this known problem and advising use of only the ticket office pre 0900

THat, to me, doesn't defend them NOT doing so at all.

[ChrisB]

Could they not just trick the machines into thinking it was a weekend where peak restrictions don't apply?

Difficult - otherwise you could do the same with banking software, and all hell could break out.

[grahame]

It's my understanding that ticket offices are required to offer you / sell you the lowest price direct ticket for your journey, and if asked are to sell you any ticket you request, for example split tickets, excesses and so forth.

Ticket Vending Machines (TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine)), though, have no such requirement on them to sell you the lowest price ticket (and without you typing in which train you'll be travelling on and a lot more, how could they) nor to sell you a full range of tickets. To my knowledge, ticket machines don't sell tickets for future dates, tickets starting at other stations, or excesses.

My own view is that it's morally incumbent on TVM oerators to make the lowest price ticket choices clearly and easily available (by default if possible) for as much of the time as practical. However I have some evidence that quite often people don't get sold the cheapest ticket for their journey;  as I haven't obtained this data by personally speaking to the people, I don't know at first had why this is, but I have heard "wasn't sure of off peak, so bouught any time in case", "didn't know there was another option" and "wasn't sure when I would be coming back".

You can buy tickets on line for collection from a TVM, and I have actually sat at my laptop in Paddington and ordered tickets for a future date, walked over and collected them (the chap on the ticket desk having refused to sell me the tickets because it was after 9 p.m.).   There is (is there still?) a two hour wait you may have before you can collect, but I think it's pretty well instant these days in most places.   As others have said, the flexibility of online ordering shows you what should be possible with the machines themselves, and indeed I can see a future where you have a bank of cheap laptops (does the railway do anything "cheap", though?) with the expensive TVM being used for many more but short pickup transactions that follow.

[ChrisB]

If you select the station you wish to travel to, it will offer you all the fares that are valid for outward travel at that time. If you are buying a return, you need to select the info box which (should!) tell(s) you the return restrictions...to enable you to make an informed choice.

Without being able to insert the date/time of your return, I cannot see how a TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) could possibly sell you the right return itself.

[JayMac]

Could they not just trick the machines into thinking it was a weekend where peak restrictions don't apply?

Difficult - otherwise you could do the same with banking software, and all hell could break out.

Eh? What has banking software got to do with railway TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine)?

I'll reiterate. If I rock up to a FGW^▸ (First Great Western) TVM tomorrow morning at 0700 wanting to travel to destination for which FGW price the flow, I'd expect that TVM to sell me the correct Off Peak ticket. I'd should not just accept that I have to pay the Anytime fare simply because someone can't be bothered to ensure the TVM is correctly programmed.

[grahame]

Passenger focus has some interesting stuff on TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine).

http://www.passengerfocus.org.uk/key-issues/retailing

Not sure of the age of all of that, but references to Justine Greening suggest 14 October 2011 ^ 4 September 2012

Evidence showed that in many cases passengers found operation of the TVMs was not easy and often counter-intuitive:

Sheer volume of information felt to be overwhelming and difficult to decide where to press.
Passengers felt they had to do the hard work of finding the best ticket for their journey instead of the machine.
Information boxes to the side and bottom of screens were often not seen by passengers.
Information in yellow writing was not readily visible.
In some cases information about routes and restrictions was not provided, instead instructions were given to ask a member of staff for information.
Ages applicable to child fares were not shown.
Jargon was also used especially in relation to the London zone system.

and

Since undertaking our research we have continued to investigate ticket machines and have identified further issues that cause lack of clarity for passengers purchasing tickets:

There is often insufficient information about  restrictions to enable to the passenger to make an informed choice.
There is a lack of coherence between TVMs. On a station it is possible to find a variety of machines all working in differing ways. E.g. One TVM may offer a rail card without requesting a photo card number while another machine on the same station requires it.
At hub and terminal stations TVMs standing next to each other, but provided by differing TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company), may offer different products. The range of tickets on offer and priority given to them is varied, and from the passengers perspective, without an obvious rationale. This includes not providing tickets to some regional towns serviced by the station. 
Some ticket machines nationally do not provide the option to purchase ticket to relatively local stations built within the last 6 years. Train companies cite the high cost of reprogramming some manufacturers TVMs as a key factor preventing the updating of machines. ATOC^» (Association of Train Operating Companies See - here) have advised they are working to develop an automatic feed to correct this matter but have not offered a date when this development will be in operation.
The presentation of TVMs offers no information as to the range of products available, or whether preference has been given to tickets for a particular route.
Even on unstaffed stations passengers are offered no advice as to what to do if they are unable to purchase the required ticket from the TVM. Permits to travel tickets are rarely available.  This exposes passengers to the risk of unpaid fares, and penalty notices.
Some station have a TVM on one side of the platform only
Some machines take credit cards only

Has an update or progress report been published to follow this up in the last 2 years?

[ChrisB]

Well BNM, you won't get it.

Firstly, its a concession to the rules, not every TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) has adopted it. Therefore the TOC can offer it for sale anyway it wishes.

Secondly, if you wanted a Travelcard, you'd need the peak equivalent anyway, as TfL^» (Transport for London - about) are scrooges and are still charging peak fares

[thetrout]

Secondly, if you wanted a Travelcard, you'd need the peak equivalent anyway, as TfL^» (Transport for London - about) are scrooges and are still charging peak fares

So what about using Off Peak Travelcards for Natonal Rail Services only? Or waiting until TfL Off Peak times?

[ChrisB]

Yes, you can hang around until 0930

[JayMac]

Well BNM, you won't get it.

Firstly, its a concession to the rules, not every TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) has adopted it. Therefore the TOC can offer it for sale anyway it wishes.

A concession built into the restriction code. Which forms part of the contract between the TOC and the passenger, as governed by the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

But never mind that, we apparently have a supposed passengers' champion saying it's OK for FGW^▸ (First Great Western)'s TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) to overcharge their customers.

Carry on obfuscating by all means ChrisB, with your excuses for FGWs failings in this matter. FGW priced flows across their network (excepting Travelcards) should be sold from TVMs at the correct Off Peak rate over the festive period.

If online booking engines can do it, if ticket office systems can do it, if telesales can do it, then so, damn well, should TVMs be able to do it. 

[ChrisB]

You sure the online sales can do it?

You can't buy Advances from TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) for the same reason - don't hear complaints about that

[JayMac]

Another left field excuse that bears no relevance to the issue under discussion. We are not talking about Advance Purchase tickets.

And yes, online sales are correctly interpreting the restriction codes on FGW^▸ (First Great Western) priced flows for 24th December to 4th January. Admittedly there are one or two long distance FGW flows aren't offering Super Off Peak all day on Friday 2nd January (PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains)-BRI^» (Bristol Temple Meads - next trains), PAD-PLY^» (Plymouth - next trains)) as they should be, due to a bug in WebTIS that FGW have been made aware of. Guess who pointed out the bug to FGW...?  All other FGW priced flows are correctly available online at Off Peak and/or Super Off Peak prices until 4th January.

And guess who is disappointed that, despite pointing out to FGW the online booking engines error on 3rd December, it still isn't fixed?

Like the TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) issue it smacks of a culture of not caring that passengers may be overcharged. It has me sufficiently concerned that I'm gathering the necessary evidence to take to Passenger Focus, both for the TVM issue and the few flows incorrectly restricted on Friday 2nd January.

[ChrisB]

You won't get anywhere, except for possibly a confirm that notices should be suitably displayed and the info included in Xmas literature

It's the same every year. No one has previously raised major complains. The TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) software will need almost a complete rewrite.

[ellendune]

The TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) software will need almost a complete rewrite.

It does anyway.