Unfair upgrade cost

[whole diary]

[John R]

Earlier this week I travelled from SWI^» (Swindon - next trains) to PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains) mid-day, expecting to return on the 1930. So I purchased a Super Off Peak return at ^44.  However, things finished a bit early so I found myself in plenty of time for the 1830, which I thought I would catch, and then travel beyond SWI back home to NLS.

Knowing that the 1830 is a peak service, I enquired at the ticket office as to the cost to upgrade my return journey to an anytime, and was quoted ^77, rather more than the anytime single fare of ^60.  The advice was to throw away my return and buy a single instead.

This appears grossly unfair. I would have expected to pay the difference between a super off peak single and an anytime single, which would have been around ^38, but not have to pay as if I had travelled outward in the peak. I appreciate (in hindsight) that if I had bought two singles, at a slightly higher original cost, that's what I would have paid to upgrade, but it still doesn't appear equitable.

I decided not to, and went upstairs to the Mad Bear and Bishop where I supped a couple of pints of Tribute before coming back at my original time.

[Chris from Nailsea]

An excellent use of the time, John R. 

[JayMac]

Unfortunately, as you discovered, the correct procedure, if excessing a Return ticket not valid due to a time restriction, is to charge the difference between the Return fare held and the appropriate Return fare allowing you to travel at the time required, even if travel at a time when the original ticket is not valid is in one direction only. If the difference is greater than the Single fare valid at the time you wish to travel then that should be sold instead.

The principle behind this is similar to (Super) Off Peak Singles rarely being half the cost of (Super) Off Peak Returns. For whatever reason, discounted walk-up tickets seem to be predicated on the idea of a return journey, with both legs of the journey made at (Super) Off Peak times.

Should this scenario happen in the future, I'd forget about an excess and suggest buying an Anytime Single Paddington to Reading for ^22.20, an Off Peak Day Single from Reading to Didcot Parkway for ^5.90, and a Super Off Peak Single Didcot Parkway to Swindon for ^9.70, for a total of ^37.80. Considerably cheaper than the Anytime Single Paddington to Swindon of ^60.50, and cheaper than if the excess was half the difference between the Super Off Peak and Anytime Return fares (^38.50)

Correct me if I'm wrong JohnR, but I believe you also hold a Season ticket Nailsea & Backwell to Swindon. If that's the case you can split any add-on tickets at Didcot Parkway regardless of whether services call there.

[JayMac]

Further to the above, if you are travelling from Swindon to London after 1030 and unsure of your return time the same day, I'd suggest the following before buying the Super Off Peak Return at ^44.00:

Swindon - Didcot Parkway Super Off Peak Return ^16.70 (no evening restrictions on the return journey)
Didcot Parkway - Reading Off Peak Day Return ^6.00 (ditto)
Reading - London Paddington Off Peak Day Return ^17.70

Total: ^40.40 if you return on the 1930 or later.

Should you wish to return earlier than 1930 then you just buy a Paddington to Reading Anytime Day Single for ^22.20. For a total of ^62.60

[John R]

Correct me if I'm wrong JohnR, but I believe you also hold a Season ticket Nailsea & Backwell to Swindon. If that's the case you can split any add-on tickets at Didcot Parkway regardless of whether services call there.

Nearly correct. I hold two, from NLS to Chippenham, and then another onto SWI^» (Swindon - next trains). A suggestion from Ollie that has saved me around ^1200 over the last six years. 

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll put them to one side for future reference!

[Oxonhutch]

Correct me if I'm wrong JohnR, but I believe you also hold a Season ticket Nailsea & Backwell to Swindon. If that's the case you can split any add-on tickets at Didcot Parkway regardless of whether services call there.

Please could you explain how that is BNM as Didcot is on the far side of Swindon.  Is there an obscure Easement that allows doubling-back through DID^» (Didcot Parkway - next trains)?

[ellendune]

Correct me if I'm wrong JohnR, but I believe you also hold a Season ticket Nailsea & Backwell to Swindon. If that's the case you can split any add-on tickets at Didcot Parkway regardless of whether services call there.

Please could you explain how that is BNM as Didcot is on the far side of Swindon.  Is there an obscure Easement that allows doubling-back through DID^» (Didcot Parkway - next trains)?

You still need to hold a ticket from Swindon to Didcot, but because one of the tickets for the journey is a season you do not need to be on a train that calls at the station even though the station in question is not one at the end of the season ticket.

[JayMac]

Correct me if I'm wrong JohnR, but I believe you also hold a Season ticket Nailsea & Backwell to Swindon. If that's the case you can split any add-on tickets at Didcot Parkway regardless of whether services call there.

Nearly correct. I hold two, from NLS to Chippenham, and then another onto SWI^» (Swindon - next trains). A suggestion from Ollie that has saved me around ^1200 over the last six years. 

Ahh, two Season Tickets. Then, technically, if you are using split ticket add-ons to those Season Tickets to make one through journey then the train you catch must call at the split points. It's only if you hold one Season Ticket that you are free to take a train that doesn't call at the split points.

From National Rail Conditions of Carriage:

19. Using a combination of tickets

You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire journey and one of the following applies:

(a) they are both Zonal Tickets unless special conditions prohibit their use in this way. The Ticket Seller will, if you ask, advise you whether you can use a Zonal Ticket in combination with another ticket.

(b) the train you are in calls at a station where you change from one ticket to another;

or

(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport  executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not.

However, you could possibly argue that you are only using the Chippenham - Swindon Season in combination with the split add-ons. Maybe even step off at Chippenham and immediately back on again for a 'new' journey from Chippenham to Nailsea & Backwell. 

That's not a serious suggestion, the rule as written does say one Season Ticket. Notwithstanding the practicality of enforcing it.

Somewhat moot in your case though, as I suspect you'll always be aiming for either the 1730, 1830 or 1930 off Paddington, as they all offer a direct service to Nailsea & Backwell and all call at Didcot Parkway.

[Oxonhutch]

I am still confused though with BNM's comment that with a Nailsea-Swindon season ticket(s) you can split a ticket at Didcot even though the train does not stop there. I must be missing something here, and I am very familiar with NRCC 19c having had to explain it to a TM^‡(resolve) once.

[ellendune]

If John R were taking BNM's suggestion and was going all the way from Paddington to Nailsea and Backwell he would be using no less than 5 tickets!

Rule 19 is OK with two or more so 5 is OK. Normally, however, it would require him to take a train that stops at all of the ticket changeover change points (Reading, Didcot, Swindon, Chippenham). However 19(c) does not require this where one of the tickets is a season.

Now I am sure the writers only had a two ticket split in mind when they wrote this and so were assuming the changeover station would be at one end of the season ticket. But the wording does not include any such restriction it only says one (therefore any one) of the tickets is a season ticket. Therefore even though the season ticket does not cover Didcot, the combination would be valid even on a non-stop Paddington to Nailsea & Backwell train if one existed (now there is a thought!).

[John R]

Therefore even though the season ticket does not cover Didcot, the combination would be valid even on a non-stop Paddington to Nailsea & Backwell train if one existed (now there is a thought!).

There is indeed a thought.    Though on second thoughts perhaps it could also stop at Swindon so that my daily commute is covered, without all the riff raff from intermediate stations slowing me down. 

[JayMac]

Such riff-raff being me on occasions. 

Often find myself on the 1730, 1830 or 1930 ex PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains) from Swindon to Bristol.

[thetrout]

However, you could possibly argue that you are only using the Chippenham - Swindon Season in combination with the split add-ons. Maybe even step off at Chippenham and immediately back on again for a 'new' journey from Chippenham to Nailsea & Backwell. 

With my autistic head on. That is exactly what I would do. Maybe even only present the season ticket to CPM^» (Chippenham - next trains) in combination with split tickets from London Paddington.

In the event of a ticket check from Chippenham/Bath Spa onwards. Which is not likely in First Class. Although TMs^‡(resolve) do come through to see if anyone is going to a short platform station to explain the move to front 4 coaches procedure. I would then present the second season ticket. Ticket checks are usually only done beyond CPM/BTH^» (Bath Spa - next trains) for anyone who boards and sits in First Class from there. (Eyebrows are raised as to why a spotty youff type hoodie wearing object is not ejected at high speed )

You will have, of course, stepped off the train at Chippenham for purposes of CCTV^▸ (Closed Circuit Tele Vision) capturing to ensure complete compliance with the legislation / NRCoC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage) but decided to change your mind at the last moment.

Hmmmm... On the border of condoning fare evasion there perhaps. But in reality, 2 season tickets are held anyway so the NRCoC wording would apply regardless of the Split Ticket Combination being NLS - CPM Season / CPM - SWI^» (Swindon - next trains) Season / SWI - PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains) Standard Anytime Single.

In the case point. John R holds a First Class set of season tickets from NLS - CPM - SWI so it could be intepretted as a new journey regardless based on the change of class.

Hypothetically speaking. Lets assume the train didn't stop at Swindon... At what point can John R move up back to First Class?

[John R]

Hypothetically speaking. Lets assume the train didn't stop at Swindon... At what point can John R move up back to First Class?

I wondered that when a train home from London was diverted via Newbury. I did check with the TM^‡(resolve) that a single to Swindon would be OK with my season tickets, and he was fine with that. I moved into first at Bathampton Junction.

[Oxonhutch]

Right, now I get it.

(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport  executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not.

The clue is in the "(s) is/are". My reading of the NRCC 19c always understood it to be One Season + One Non-Season.  I have checked the wording, and you are correct: "(s) is/are".  Has this recently changed (last two years or so) or have I always looked through it?

Interesting travel permutations now appear in my mind ...

...My challenge now. How not to stop at a London Terminal?!