New trains from old?

[whole diary]

[John R]

Given his early career was spent at English Electric I don't think you should assume that he writes from a position of ignorance on the subject.


Ford trained as a mechanical engineer with English Electric at Rugby, specialising in prime movers, and on qualification joined the head office of the company^s Traction Division. While at English Electric Traction he was seconded to the Maintenance Division, spending time at Finsbury Park and Stratford locomotive depots.
(source - Wikipedia)

[chrisr_75]

Given his early career was spent at English Electric I don't think you should assume that he writes from a position of ignorance on the subject.


Ford trained as a mechanical engineer with English Electric at Rugby, specialising in prime movers, and on qualification joined the head office of the company^s Traction Division. While at English Electric Traction he was seconded to the Maintenance Division, spending time at Finsbury Park and Stratford locomotive depots.
(source - Wikipedia)

I wasn't making assumptions he was ignorant, merely stating my surprise that he is of that opinion given that we've had 60+ years of generally successful use of marine & road derived diesel engines in rail applications. Indeed, most of the large EE engines of the modernisation era were marine derived. Given his background with EE, it surprises me even more that he is of the opinion that there are no road derived diesel engines currently available that would be suitable for this application.

[ellendune]

Having read Roger Ford's articles for many years and heard the respect with which he is held within the industry I put my money on his judgement.  However, if you read the article, he does respect those involved in the project, so he does not totally dismiss the possibility that it might work. He just remains to be convinced that a transit van engine is up to the vibration that comes from steel wheel on steel rail. 

[grahame]

http://www.transportxtra.com/magazines/local_transport_today/news/?ID=40073

A rolling stock engineering firm says it has reached agreement with Transport for London to purchase surplus District Line trains, with the intention of converting them to diesel power so they can replace ageing and unpopular Pacer and Sprinter units running on many provincial lines in Britain, writes John W E Helm.

[devon_metro]

I think i'd rather travel on a 14x than D stock!!

[stuving]

If you want to see Vivarail's own case for the "D-train", it's here - with that Roger Ford article too.

Perhaps I should add - that's only a simple glossy web-site spiel, not the 43-page technical brochure.

[thetrout]

I think it's a great idea if I'm honest. Eversholt refurbished a Class 321 which I had the pleasure of traveling on a while back. The refurbishment was very well done and as a layman I would easily have thought it was a brand new train. Windows were nice and wide, lighting was good, felt alot more open and spacious.

[onthecushions]

I think that the logic is as follows:

The lease cost per annum of a rail passenger carriage is in the range ^75k - ^150k of which about 1/3 is for capital - the rest being heavy maintenance. Thus the "rent" proper is ^25k - ^50k. If you could get this for ten years, after interest the capital value (NPV) would be ^200k - ^400k. You can buy a seviceable but scrap carriage for ^5k - ^10k. As this would be a bogie vehicle it would have a value towards the higher end. Put in ^100k  per car and you double your money or more.

Good luck to Adrian Shooter and Vivarail.

The figures are around if anyone wants to check.

OTC

[Network SouthEast]

I think that the Vivarail proposed D-Train might have a chance, but only if they can bring this to market quickly.

I think the biggest enemy of Vivarail is not their proposed technology, but time.

We're seeing a massive programme of electrification. Network Rail in their Route Studies are now outlining possible future electrification projects beyond 2019. In the next five years we are going to see a large surplus of DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) stock from the Transpennie, Thames Valley, North West, Electric Spine and Central Scotland electrification schemes.

So the D-Train will be competing against tried and tested rolling stock. Some of it (in the case of the 185s) barely a decade old.

The cost of conversion will need to be low. The leasing companies will expect a Section 54 Undertaking to spend any money financing the D-Train, and will the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) really be in the mood for this?

Well there are currently 156 Pacers in service. So even with a large cascade and electrification there might be a need for the D-Train.

For it to work, they'll need to be able to do the conversions sooner rather than later, and the cost needs to have as short a pay back period as possible.

[chrisr_75]

I think that the Vivarail proposed D-Train might have a chance, but only if they can bring this to market quickly.

I think the biggest enemy of Vivarail is not their proposed technology, but time.

We're seeing a massive programme of electrification. Network Rail in their Route Studies are now outlining possible future electrification projects beyond 2019. In the next five years we are going to see a large surplus of DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) stock from the Transpennie, Thames Valley, North West, Electric Spine and Central Scotland electrification schemes.

So the D-Train will be competing against tried and tested rolling stock. Some of it (in the case of the 185s) barely a decade old.

The cost of conversion will need to be low. The leasing companies will expect a Section 54 Undertaking to spend any money financing the D-Train, and will the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) really be in the mood for this?

Well there are currently 156 Pacers in service. So even with a large cascade and electrification there might be a need for the D-Train.

For it to work, they'll need to be able to do the conversions sooner rather than later, and the cost needs to have as short a pay back period as possible.

There is, of course, the potential for these re-engineered units to be marketed internationally, which I'm sure this company will have given due consideration to if there is a limited potential lifespan in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom).

An interesting project if it comes to fruition, and goes very much against recent trends of scrapping/exporting relatively young rolling stock rather then refurbishing or re-engineering.

[TonyK]

I think that the logic is as follows:

The lease cost per annum of a rail passenger carriage is in the range ^75k - ^150k of which about 1/3 is for capital - the rest being heavy maintenance. Thus the "rent" proper is ^25k - ^50k. If you could get this for ten years, after interest the capital value (NPV) would be ^200k - ^400k. You can buy a seviceable but scrap carriage for ^5k - ^10k. As this would be a bogie vehicle it would have a value towards the higher end. Put in ^100k  per car and you double your money or more.

Good luck to Adrian Shooter and Vivarail.

The figures are around if anyone wants to check.

OTC

I'm not even an armchair accountant, but I see the issues here through the eyes of an armchair layman. There is a parallel with aviation. Budget airlines operating in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) - I shall not name whom I have in mind, but one came from Ireland, and the other is easy to guess - began operations with basically hand-me-down Boeing 737s. They now use the latest Airbus models, and I returned from my tan-topping sojourn to Tenerife last month on easyPeasy's (whoops! nearly gave the game away!) latest A320, only a month off the production line. These operators see the value of leasing new energy efficient aircraft, in the same way that I first bought a 15-year old Mini in 1978 and now drive a year old (bought new) Nissan. My first car did about half the mpg of my current, carried less, and necessitated me spending my weekends under the bonnet with a Haynes manual, trying to figure out what was wrong. I drove without brakes for a week, which was interesting, until I could get the piston repair kit, fit it, and bleed it. In the unlikely event of my brakes failing now, I would call the RAC (complimentary), have the car towed to my local dealer, and have the fault repaired under warranty, FOC^▸ (Freight Operating Company).

Like RyanAir any Irish airline would do. Cheap is not necessarily the least expensive, and your accountant will tell a pretty story to suit the taxman, your investors, and the missus if need be.

[JayMac]

Say what you like about mpg, but spending a Sunday under the bonnet of a BMC Mini, referring back and forth to a Haynes Manual, is far more enjoyable than T-cutting a Nissan Micra.

Did both recently. Gettng the Mini to splutter into life was far more enjoyable than being able to see my reflection in the bonnet of Mum's Micra.

Sorry, I digress. D stock with strap on Diesels on the national network? No thanks.

[Tim]

Sorry, I digress. D stock with strap on Diesels on the national network? No thanks.

I agree.  And I don't buy the economics here either.  I understand is that their is a reluctance to invest in diesel units because future electrification might make them redundant before their full life, but if the economics make sense for converting D-stock to diesel, then the economics ought to make sense for converting a diesel to electric mid-way through its life.   

[TonyK]

Say what you like about mpg, but spending a Sunday under the bonnet of a BMC Mini, referring back and forth to a Haynes Manual, is far more enjoyable than T-cutting a Nissan Micra.

The difference is between hobby and necessity.

[Surrey 455]

Budget airlines operating in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) - I shall not name whom I have in mind, but one came from Ireland, and the other is easy to guess - began operations with basically hand-me-down Boeing 737s. They now use the latest Airbus models......

easyJet exclusively use Airbus planes, Ryanair exclusively use Boeing planes. By sticking to one manufacturer their maintenance costs are lower apparently.