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Author Topic: Petition for mileage based fares  (Read 4499 times)
grahame
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« on: November 22, 2014, 20:50:14 »

https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/rail-fares-that-make-sense

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To make railway ticket charging regulations that force all railway companies to charge fares based on distance travelled irrespective of which train company is used and where the journey is made.

Why is this important?

We have a bewildering number of train tickets available, which can sometimes mean that for a long journey it is cheaper to buy 2 single fare tickets rather than one single fare ticket. Also, a return ticket can be cheaper than a single. It can even be cheaper to buy a ticket from one train company's ticket machine than from another train company's machine. Travelling to London Victoria can be cheaper than travelling to Clapham Junction (a shorter distance for me).
Looking at a ticket machine screen can make your head spin, when all you want to do is get from A to B and be charged for the distance travelled.
Legislation is needed to impose logic and fairness.
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ChrisB
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« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2014, 21:10:26 »

Bang would go your Advance fares....but I agree something's necessary
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LiskeardRich
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« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2014, 21:21:18 »

Some areas have really cheap fares that would lose out.
Living in corwall and making most of my journeys around Cornwall I don't support this petition at concern our prices would increase as a result.
Certain parts of the country rightfully have higher or lower fares than other areas based on many variables which wouldn't be right to level out over the whole nationwide networks
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grahame
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« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2024, 14:22:09 »

10 years ago today - isn't it amazing how long it's taking to sort out fares. 
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« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2024, 16:12:11 »

10 years ago today - isn't it amazing how long it's taking to sort out fares. 

No. RDG(resolve) and DfT» (Department for Transport - about) have been passing this buck back and forth for years, so obviously it's something that scares them. And for good reason - any change would be seen as worse for them by a lot of people. We all know that when affected by something changing, those who gain barely notice and forget within a week or two, while those who feel hard done by bear a grudge for years.

I'm sure RDG would have accepted a radical simplification, and might have quite liked some aspects, such as having a lot of aggro about validity go away. But they really wanted to have a big say in the new system, but for it to be seen as imposed on them, so they could keep saying anything unpopular wasn't their fault.
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Bob_Blakey
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« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2024, 11:38:32 »

Distance related fares are something that I have supported for quite some time; the price of any service, particularly one partially funded by the tax payer, should to some extent reflect the cost of providing it. I fully understand that this is not a simple calculation, and there are a myriad of things (potential variations) to be considered before settling on an appropriate £/mile metric.

But I do not accept that just because a particular area has been benefitting from what are effectively discounted fares since the year dot that this should be allowed to continue; not that long ago cheaper Off-Peak tickets from/to Avocet (Branch line from Exeter to Exmouth) Line stations into/out of Exeter were completely withdrawn in favour of the Anytime product and I don't recall any public protests or reduction in passenger numbers.

The DfT» (Department for Transport - about) civil service number crunchers should be tasked to look at the current situation in terms of £/mile fare variations nationally.

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TaplowGreen
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« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2024, 16:27:24 »


Distance related fares are something that I have supported for quite some time; the price of any service, particularly one partially funded by the tax payer, should to some extent reflect the cost of providing it. I fully understand that this is not a simple calculation, and there are a myriad of things (potential variations) to be considered before settling on an appropriate £/mile metric.



I would imagine the cost of tickets on services such as the Night Riviera would be unaffordable to just about everyone were that formula to be followed.
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eXPassenger
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« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2024, 17:37:11 »


Distance related fares are something that I have supported for quite some time; the price of any service, particularly one partially funded by the tax payer, should to some extent reflect the cost of providing it. I fully understand that this is not a simple calculation, and there are a myriad of things (potential variations) to be considered before settling on an appropriate £/mile metric.



I would imagine the cost of tickets on services such as the Night Riviera would be unaffordable to just about everyone were that formula to be followed.

A potential solution would be to taper the cost of rail travel over a specified distance.

For example:
First 150 miles x p/mile
Next 50 miles .75 x p/mile
Next 50 miles .50 x p/mile

This algorithm would be published as part of new mileage based fares.  Similarly off peak fares could be charged as a specified % of the standard fare.
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« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2024, 01:02:28 »

Fares based purely on mileage would mean big rises on rural routes that are currently much cheaper. 

Compare Swindon to London with Scarborough to Goole which are roughly the same distance apart.  The latter is less than half the cost for the cheapest return ticket currently, but is less frequent and takes almost twice as long.

Surely the option of increasing one fare or lowering the other could never be an option?
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« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2024, 09:32:49 »

I see at least two arguments a simple mileage based fare.
Firstly, local commuting should arguably be subsidised out of public funds as it is a "public good" The vast numbers of workers in London and other large cities cant all drive to work as there is not the road capacity or parking spaces. There is not sufficient housing available near enough for more than a small minority to walk or cycle to work.
Therefore train travel from say Reading to Paddington needs subsidy.
Travel from Taunton to Paddington is arguably less deserving of subsidy, living in Taunton and working in central London is a lifestyle choice, for which the user must expect to pay. Travel between Reading and London is NOT a lifestyle choice, London employers need workers, and these workers need affordable public transport from Reading, and other nearby places.

There is also a second argument, which SOMEWHAT contradicts the first one.
Running a train between London and say Penzance costs of certain sum. The two main factors to consider, are providing enough capacity to avoid standing/overcrowding on the inner part of the route to say Taunton, and also providing a reasonable service to Penzance.
Having incurred the largely fixed costs PER TRAIN it could be argued that travel to Penzance should cost no more than to Plymouth. It costs a certain amount to run enough trains, so does it really much matter how far a passenger travels?

I therefore doubt that a mileage based system would work well, keep the present system but look again at any fares that appear extremely cheap or expensive, and consider alterations unless some good reason can be found to retain apparently odd fares.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
TaplowGreen
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« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2024, 09:54:38 »

Given the level of service GWR (Great Western Railway) are currently delivering, the suggestion of any increase in fares (which would seem inevitable, and in some cases dramatic given the formula being suggested) seems truly bizarre.
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Bob_Blakey
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« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2024, 10:15:23 »

Fares based purely on mileage would mean big rises on rural routes that are currently much cheaper. 

Compare Swindon to London with Scarborough to Goole which are roughly the same distance apart.....

Straightaway we have, as I indicated, one potential variation which might produce a better result; Swindon to Paddington is obviously a fast 'InterCity' route whilst Scarborough (SCA)<>Goole (GOO (Guard Only Operation)) quite clearly isn't. So possibly look at a mathematical combination of distance and average speed over the route (or journey) to set fares e.g. SCA to York (YRK) via Malton (MLT) is only operated by TPE (Trans Pennine Express) and takes c.50 minutes to cover the 42 miles while the Northern service via Kingston-upon-Hull (HUL) is roughly 105 miles / 100 minutes, giving 0.84 & 1.05 miles/minute (mpm) respectively. SWI» (Swindon - next trains) to PAD» (Paddington (London) - next trains) is 77 miles in 51>61 minutes at 1.26>1.51mpm. Closer to home one can travel the 28 miles between EXD» (Exeter St Davids - next trains) & PGN with either GWR (Great Western Railway) (c.65 mins) or XC (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) (c.41 mins) giving values of 0.43 & 0.68 respectively. For a local comparison EXD to BNP (Barnstaple) throws up a 'standard' value of 0.5mpm although early morning trains come in at closer to 0.60mpm. Better minds than mine might be able say whether this type of approach would be at all workable. 
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PhilWakely
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« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2024, 11:15:23 »

Fares based purely on mileage would mean big rises on rural routes that are currently much cheaper. 

Compare Swindon to London with Scarborough to Goole which are roughly the same distance apart.....

Straightaway we have, as I indicated, one potential variation which might produce a better result; Swindon to Paddington is obviously a fast 'InterCity' route whilst Scarborough (SCA)<>Goole (GOO (Guard Only Operation)) quite clearly isn't. So possibly look at a mathematical combination of distance and average speed over the route (or journey) to set fares e.g. SCA to York (YRK) via Malton (MLT) is only operated by TPE (Trans Pennine Express) and takes c.50 minutes to cover the 42 miles while the Northern service via Kingston-upon-Hull (HUL) is roughly 105 miles / 100 minutes, giving 0.84 & 1.05 miles/minute (mpm) respectively. SWI» (Swindon - next trains) to PAD» (Paddington (London) - next trains) is 77 miles in 51>61 minutes at 1.26>1.51mpm. Closer to home one can travel the 28 miles between EXD» (Exeter St Davids - next trains) & PGN with either GWR (Great Western Railway) (c.65 mins) or XC (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) (c.41 mins) giving values of 0.43 & 0.68 respectively. For a local comparison EXD to BNP (Barnstaple) throws up a 'standard' value of 0.5mpm although early morning trains come in at closer to 0.60mpm. Better minds than mine might be able say whether this type of approach would be at all workable. 

How would you classify a journey from PNZ to PAD ?  EXD roughly halfway, with fast services between PAD and EXD, but the same service takes almost one third longer between EXD and PNZ.
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WSW Frome
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« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2024, 11:51:30 »

The current confused system of "market-based" fares arrived in the 1970's when BR (British Rail(ways)) started to try to fill off-peak capacity. Prior to that (and also subsequently for many years) the main offer on tickets was a normal or full fare ticket, or a cheap day return. I would hazard a guess that the single fare was around half the full return fare (please correct me if this was not so). BR did in fact taper longer distance fares to make them realistic (or affordable!). How this was done may be lost in the mists of time. Now all these fares had historic origins but very likely had some basis in being distance based.

If someone was bold enough there could be some merit in using an older BR fares manual as a template to start introducing a more logical system. Unlikely to happen since BR is still regarded as bad in many official eyes and of course, modern "marketing" is an industry in itself to create a desirable and also "profitable" product.

Split ticketing is really nothing new either. I imagine many may remember having to purchase a series of cheap day returns at each of the relevant ticket offices. This was in order to make an extended day trip more affordable since cheap day returns were generally only available for up to 50 miles and for specific routes only.       
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Mark A
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« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2024, 12:03:33 »

Split ticketing is really nothing new either. I imagine many may remember having to purchase a series of cheap day returns at each of the relevant ticket offices. This was in order to make an extended day trip more affordable since cheap day returns were generally only available for up to 50 miles and for specific routes only.       

This chimes with an account I read from a couple of young residents of Nottingham who travelled to Leicester on a (rail-related) explore,  day returns from Victoria to Loughborough and Loughborough to Leicester making the excursion rather more affordable than it would otherwise have been.

Mark
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