Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion

[whole diary]

[rogerw]

The cl 387 hybrids would have batteries and not diesel engines.  Useful for retaining through trains to Bedwyn, for example.

[Gordon the Blue Engine]

Good heavens, I hadn't thought of batteries, just shows how the technology is progressing.  What range, speed and acceleration are we looking at?

[grahame]

Good heavens, I hadn't thought of batteries, just shows how the technology is progressing.  What range, speed and acceleration are we looking at?

Some discussion on these units and tests at

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=14408

I would be very interested to see some recent stats and thoughts as to what they might cover.   Not only a question of distance on a single charge, but how quick to charge too.  Some Chinese trams are nor running on capacitors - charge at stops and pick up enough juice to get to next stop.   I have also heard suggestions around intermittent electrification along the lines of giving high speed bimodes a boost along the way where there's no expensive infrastructure work needed. And that leads me to think about recharging the Bedwyn service in the turn back siding, or stringing up a bit of spaghetti at Banbury.  No good if there's no a fast charge option ... can you imagine "This train is running 15 minutes late because we've had to stop and charge a flat battery"

[stuving]

I would be very interested to see some recent stats and thoughts as to what they might cover. 

In particular, the results coming out of that Harwich trail - has anyone seen anything? Bright ideas and experiments are one thing, but practical production machinery that will last twenty years or more takes a lot of extra work. Even outside the railways - and we all know how long change takes there. 

[John R]

As I understand it they charge when under the wires, so a relatively short journey from Newbury to Bedwyn and back would be fine.  Presumably there would be some indication in the cab to show the remaining mileage, to prevent a service running out of charge a mile from Newbury on the return run and blocking the line.

[Adelante_CCT]

I don't think this has been mentioned elsewhere, but there is a very confident story in Modern Railways this month that GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) will not be getting the GTR 387's after all, but will be getting 37 brand shiny new units instead. 8 of these are the ones currently under construction, to be followed by the remaining 14 from the Porterbrook speculative build, topped up by an additional order of 15 units. 

Thought I was keeping up with the latest details like this, but obviously not! Just been browsing other sites and they have been saying the same for the past couple of weeks. 37 brand new 387s heading to GWR instead of 8 new and 29 'almost new' ones .

The report also suggests that GWR are cooling on the Class 365s, and would prefer a further build of AT300s.

Bit puzzled why AT300s would be preferred to 365s though?

This is also mentioned. I always thought 37 x 387s and 21 x 365s were a little over the top, bearing in mind the introduction of the 'Crossrails' 345s as well.

A handful more AT300s I feel would be adequate cover for the 'loss' of the 365s. Just as II explains in the following:

The scenario I could see developing is that electrification is being delayed so much that the 377s would be able to cover what diagrams are needed until the Class 345 Elizabeth Line trains start to take over the majority of the suburban services in 2019, when the 377s would then be able to cover delayed electrification routes such as Oxford, so there would be no need for 365s in that event.  Perhaps a few more AT300s could then be obtained to deal with any capacity shortages on the main line services?

I take it you mean 387s?

[IndustryInsider]

I take it you mean 387s?

Yes, thanks for the correction. 

[Gordon the Blue Engine]

Battery EMU^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit)^s may be OK for trundling around Suffolk branches, but are we really saying that a Class 387 on batteries could do, for example, a 26 mile round trip from Newbury to Bedwyn with 2 intermediate stops each way with reasonable acceleration and top speed on what is a 110 mph line?

And in winter there^s lighting and heating to come out of the batteries (unless you^re expected to keep your coat on west of Newbury).

I^m sure someone can calculate the stored energy required: there is of course a gentle falling gradient from Bedwyn to Newbury so a stranded 387 could maybe coast back to Newbury!

[grahame]

Battery EMU^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit)^s may be OK for trundling around Suffolk branches, but are we really saying that a Class 387 on batteries could do, for example, a 26 mile round trip from Newbury to Bedwyn with 2 intermediate stops each way with reasonable acceleration and top speed on what is a 110 mph line?

I think the answer is that here on the forum we don't know.

We do know that Aberdeen to Ballater was 41 miles where the previous generation tried out a battery electric multiple unit.  Judging by the reports, there was (only) a charging station at each end and I see no reports / suggestions of it running out of juice during the run.

Top speed is a bit of a pink mackerel - with 6 miles, 3 miles and 5 miles between stops you're hardly likely to need something that reaches line speed for the local service.   Showing a clean pair of heels on leaving stops is important, though!

Could be we haven't heard too much about how the Harwich trial went because it was a flop.  On the other hand it could have been so successful that the commercial companies supporting it are keeping quiet to stay ahead of the game while they come up with a production-standard product.

[Andrew1939 from West Oxon]

A battery EMU^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit) could perhaps enable GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway)'s stated ambition to extend London to Oxford trains onto Hanborough as at present there is no intention to electrify byond Wolvercote

[grahame]

A battery EMU^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit) could perhaps enable GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway)'s stated ambition to extend London to Oxford trains onto Hanborough as at present there is no intention to electrify byond Wolvercote

Ranging from the more obvious to the exotic ... some shorter distances off the to-be-electrified lines include:
Banbury
Basingstoke
Bedwyn
Bourne End
Brentford
Clifton Down
Colnbrook
Gatwick (**)
Hanborough
Henbury
Henley
Oxford Parkway
Maesteg (*)
Marlow
Windsor
Yate

* - different operator but GW^▸ (Great Western) electrification Cardiff to Bridgend
** - See "3rd Rail extension" discussions

[eightf48544]

Graham, interesting list of possible destinations for Battery operation. however I wonder where some of the units would recharge given that only a short run would be under the wires.

So

Banbury yes through from Padd.
Basingstoke? Recharge Reading station not enough time?
Bedwyn yes through from Reading/Padd
Bourne End? through from Padd only
Brentford? recharge Southall? Parry People mover?
Clifton Down? recharge Temple Meads enough time?
Colnbrook could be served by Crossrail from their West Drayton terminators but their trains don't have batteries or toilets!
Gatwick (**) If 3 rail charging although whether Ash Shalford Jn would be enough to recharge to Reigate having done Wokingham  Ash.
Hanborough yes through from Padd
Henbury? would run to Filton be enough to charge?
Henley? through from Padd only
Oxford Parkway yes through from Padd/Reading but East West hopefully wired. Maybe they do Cowley Oxford on battery
Maesteg  yes through from Cardiff
Marlow NO needs short units!
Windsor NO where would they recharge? Not enough time at Slough
Yate  yes through from Temple Meads

Is it possible to charge at destinations? A short length of wire perhaps? Although you'd probably need more units and a layby to give enough time on charge. 

That's the problem with Slough - Windsor there's no layby and the turnround on the one unit 20 minute service is four minutes each end.

[paul7575]

Basingstoke, Windsor and Henley should be electrified in reasonable timescales and shouldn't really need to be concerned with battery operation.

Paul

[didcotdean]

The Seville tram runs through the historic parts on batteries and is charged at some stops as well as through the wired portion. A rather different kind of service though!

[John R]

The Seville tram runs through the historic parts on batteries and is charged at some stops as well as through the wired portion. A rather different kind of service though!

And indeed the Birmingham trams will do the same in a year or two it was recently announced.