Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion

[whole diary]

[JayMac]

Whilst I understand the comment about disadvantaging eastbound customers from Reading, the flow is nothing like it is from Paddington. Using this argument perhaps all trains should also stop at Ealing Bdy, Slough and Maidenhead!!?? 

Westbound surely?

Neither Ealing, Slough or Maidenhead are major interchanges like Reading, which has passengers coming from all directions to connect onto services to Wiltshire, Bristol, South Wales, Worcestershire, Gloucestershire, Somerset, Devon and Cornwall. In fact Slough and Maidenhead passengers are ones likely to be inconvenienced by services non-stopping through Reading. Their connection options could be reduced if more long distance services missed their Reading call.

[trainbus]

Agreed - thanks!
My final comment applies!

[stuving]

. The first fast train is the first fast train so far as commuters are concerned, irrespective of any nominal restrictions that may or may not apply, or where it may or may not be going after Reading!!

We'll see. Currently, the Reading service is provided by squeezing people into the "spare" space on long-distance trains. It's not that there is an alternative, and Reading commuters are being selfish. So what will they do when a load more seats are provided?

The morning is less of a problem, as the long-distance peak is later then for commuters, and anyway they get on first. In the evening the peaks overlap more, and everyone piles on in random order. (I go for the train after the  first one - hardly a huge wait.)

So the question is will Reading passengers go for the trains where they don't compete with long-distance ones, or have to look for reservations and risk standing if there are too many? Commuters do learn what works, and apply it on following days. Cutting the crowding enough to be able to get through the train would allow TMs^‡(resolve) to apply a bit of aversion therapy to those wrongly taking reserved seats, which would help.

I'm sure that operators find pick-up or set-down only a right pain, and would only do it as a last resort.

[PhilWakely]

My golden rule on long distance journeys is to arrive at Paddington before most of the commuters to ensure no problem getting a seat, reserved or otherwise!! Numbers of commuters arrive last minute as they cut it fine, have many trains to choose from and take the first fast whenever that is!

That is all well and good if you are 'in the know' so are fully aware which train is yours and can stand by the gate rather than watch the departure board until your train is 'called' 5 minutes before departure when everybody rushes forward. When you have either young children or elderly parents with you it is not quite so easy to 'beat the commuter'. Of course, the other alternative for others in my situation is to wait until the peak is over - but that is not always possible.

[Rhydgaled]

the other alternative for others in my situation is to wait until the peak is over - but that is not always possible.

Indeed, it isn't always possible. See my example:

. The first fast train is the first fast train so far as commuters are concerned, irrespective of any nominal restrictions that may or may not apply, or where it may or may not be going after Reading!!

We'll see. Currently, the Reading service is provided by squeezing people into the "spare" space on long-distance trains. It's not that there is an alternative, and Reading commuters are being selfish. So what will they do when a load more seats are provided?

Ever met the 17:39 (now 17:40) 'Sardine Express' off Cardiff Central? It is the last train of the day that connects to Fishguard (I don't tend to count the overnight boat train) and one of only one train every 2hrs to Milford Haven. It is normally formed of a class 175 (now lengthened to 3-car I believe, but it used to be a 2-car one). There is an IC125 from Paddington to Swansea just ten minutes later, leaving Cardiff at 17:50. Guess what? The 17:40 gets pretty full with relatively short-distance commuters. Now, you could argue that the IC125 isn't really meant for short-distance commuters either, or that the 17:40 calls at Pyle which the IC125 doesn't, so any Pyle-bound don't have the choice. But, this isn't a choice between a 9-car IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) or a 12-car suburban EMU^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit), the 17:40 is a 3-car DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) and alot of passengers still try to cram onto it rather than wait 10 minutes for the IC125.

I've not braved it for ages though, so it might not be so bad now.

[grahame]

Ever met the 17:39 (now 17:40) 'Sardine Express' off Cardiff Central? ... There is an IC125 from Paddington to Swansea just ten minutes later, leaving Cardiff at 17:50. Guess what?  ... The 17:40 is a 3-car DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) and alot of passengers still try to cram onto it rather than wait 10 minutes for the IC125.

Indeed - "a train in hand is worth two on the departure board".  (Sorry - joke used previously, but still applies).

I'm SO glad that the 17:36 Swindon to Westbury (1 car) follows the 17:30 Taunton train (8 cars), not the other way round - otherwise the short train would be crammed with Chippenham passengers, perhaps denying passengers for West Wilts the ability to board (it's getting pretty busy as it is!).

Does the 17:40 manage to keep ahead of the 17:50 HST^▸ (High Speed Train)?

[Rhydgaled]

Does the 17:40 manage to keep ahead of the 17:50 HST^▸ (High Speed Train)?

Since the line between Swansea and Cardiff is only double track the IC125 would struggle to overtake.

The 17:40 would have to sit in a loop somewhere in order to be overtaken, and I think most of the loops are freight-only. Although there might be one or two passenger loops, none of the intermediate stations have through platforms on anything other than the two main running lines, so the IC125 couldn't overtake while the other was making a station call (except perhaps if the IC125 ommited calling at Port Talbot Parkway and used the freight loop there).

The 17:40 is schedued to reach Swansea at 18:38 and depart at 18:41. The IC125 is timetabled to arrive in Swansea at 18:45. Some of the other Milford Haven services (for example the 19:46 off Cardiff, which is the next one after the 17:40) have a long wait at Swansea before departing in order that passengers on a following IC125 can connect, but the 17:40 doesn't.

[paul7575]

Interesting table giving the 387 cascade dates into the GW^▸ (Great Western) franchise from GTR.  Given that the last ones have not entered service yet, GTR will only have all 29 units available for 9 or 10 months at the most:

29 Class 387 units (116vehicles) are delivered in four distinct phases:
- 6 units by end of March 2016;
- 4 units by end of April 2016;
- 8 units by end of February 2017
- 11 units by end of March 2017

The first 6 units being timed to coincide with the start of the previously discussed EMU^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit) shuttle between Paddington and Hayes & Harlington...

(Also posted in the 2015 franchise thread.)

Paul

[Adelante_CCT]

All 29 units now in operation

http://www.thameslinkrailway.com/about-us/news/new-air-conditioned-trains-enter-service-on-thameslink/

[Visoflex]

Perhaps this thread needs to be re-named again to "Class 387 coming to Thames Valley (eventually)"

Railway industry groundswell indicates that Oxford - Didcot route electrification will most likely be a casualty of the Hendy report, and completion delayed until CP6^▸ (Control Period 6 - The five year period between 2019 and 2024).  Effort will be kept up to electrify from Reading to Didcot for rolling stock testing purposes and then to infill from Maidenhead to Reading for Crossrail then Didcot to Swindon.  Having all those expensive bi-mode IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.)'s land-locked in sidings with nowhere to go will be unacceptable to the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about).  In the short term, on the juice to Swindon, on the diesel to Bristol.

I suspect we'll be keeping the Turbos for a while longer.  How that plays with GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway)'s overall rolling stock cascade plans will have to be seen.

[IndustryInsider]

Railway industry groundswell indicates that Oxford - Didcot route electrification will most likely be a casualty of the Hendy report, and completion delayed until CP6^▸ (Control Period 6 - The five year period between 2019 and 2024). 

Are you able to provide links to this groundswell, Visoflex?  I must admit, experience of it in the past means I don't often trust railway industry groundswell... 

As far as I can see, the only justification for delaying Oxford to Didcot into CP6 is the proposed redevelopment of Oxford station itself, but, given that isn't even funded yet, it would be a dangerous and silly thing to do in my opinion.

[grahame]

Railway industry groundswell indicates that Oxford - Didcot route electrification will most likely be a casualty of the Hendy report, and completion delayed until CP6^▸ (Control Period 6 - The five year period between 2019 and 2024). 

Are you able to provide links to this groundswell, Visoflex?  I must admit, experience of it in the past means I don't often trust railway industry groundswell... 

Different to the rumours I had heard ... but then I didn't trust what I heard even to our "rumour mill".

[DidcotPunter]

If electrification of Didcot to Oxford (and presumably Reading to Newbury) is deferred, this begs the question of what happens to the 387s. My understanding is that they will be displaced by the Class 700s (Desiro Cities) of which the first units are starting testing on Southern and are due to start service on the Thameslink route next year.  The cascade programme is listed by Paul 7755 above but I believe that this was timed to allow for Padd to Oxford/Newbury services to transition to electric from 2017. If this doesn't happen then these will be sitting in sidings gathering dust which will also be embarrassing!

Modern Railways published an article a couple of months ago about NR^» (Network Rail - home page)'s drive to get the wires up to Swindon as an interim measure in the delayed GWML^▸ (Great Western Main Line) electrification programme. As stated by Visioflex, the aim was to enable the IEPs^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) to be introduced (freeing up some of the HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) to go for upgrading for ScotRail) thus avoiding the political embarrassment of expensive new trains arriving from Hitachi with no wires to run under. Running on electric to Swindon and then on diesel to points west would be possible on the Class 800 bi-modes though may involve a contract variation (expensive!) as the original contract envisaged more limited running on diesel (Swindon-Cheltenham, Oxford-Hereford, south of Bristol and west of Newbury). Also it is believed that Hitachi have been asked to quote on delivering the nine car electric Class 801s as nine car bi-modes with diesel power packs added so they can operate off the wires.

It's some weeks since I travelled from Didcot to Oxford but, when I did, there was not much evidence of great progress. There was a fair bit of piling in place from Didcot to Radley but I didn't spot anything beyond that and nothing around Oxford itself. No steelwork was visible. Similarly I travelled from Kintbury to Reading on Saturday and again there's some piling intermittently in place from west of Newbury Racecourse to Reading West but it's far from complete. NR contractors do however appear to have rebuilt most of the overbridges on this section.

On the main line, the section between Tilehurst and Moreton Cutting (just east of Didcot) is most complete with most of the masts up, many of the cantilever and portal booms erected and some of the small part steelwork. In fact the section between Tilehurst and Pangbourne looks almost ready for wiring (apart from a redundant signal gantry in the way!). There's still work to do though in the stations and around the junctions at Didcot.

East of Reading there's been a lot more piling going in on the Amey contract between Kennet Bridge and Maidenhead though there are still some large gaps. Again no steelwork in place yet. Balfour Beatty appear to be making progress on the Crossrail West contract from Maidenhead to Airport Junction. Several completed portals and cantilevers between east of Maidenhead and Burnham and also around the Langley/Iver area.

I'm no engineer so my comment is uninformed but, looking at the current rate of progress, I reckon there's every chance that Didcot to Reading will be finished by the end of next year and quite possibly Reading to Airport Junction. I'm not so sure about Didcot to Swindon as progress seems much slower here, though it's a simpler part of the route to electrify. I guess that the Oxford and Newbury branches could follow on afterwards, but that still leaves the 387s in a siding (though there was some speculation that some might be fitted with batteries like the prototype battery powered class 379 earlier this year).

[Visoflex]

Railway industry groundswell indicates that Oxford - Didcot route electrification will most likely be a casualty of the Hendy report, and completion delayed until CP6^▸ (Control Period 6 - The five year period between 2019 and 2024). 

Are you able to provide links to this groundswell, Visoflex?  I must admit, experience of it in the past means I don't often trust railway industry groundswell... 

As far as I can see, the only justification for delaying Oxford to Didcot into CP6 is the proposed redevelopment of Oxford station itself, but, given that isn't even funded yet, it would be a dangerous and silly thing to do in my opinion.

Groundswell is by definition unattributable , but a very senior member of the project team said..."one of the illogical aspects of Oxford is that we are trying to electrify the railway before we make the proposed track and signalling changes ^ which will almost certainly lead to some abortive work.... that the section of railway from Didcot to Oxford, RS4, was not worked on from an OLE^▸ (Overhead Line Equipment, more often "OHLE") perspective until Hendy has completed his report." 

So logically, if the people are taken off the project to work on GW^▸ (Great Western) mainline, then Oxford electrification slips to the right.

[Electric train]

Perhaps this thread needs to be re-named again to "Class 387 coming to Thames Valley (eventually)"

Railway industry groundswell indicates that Oxford - Didcot route electrification will most likely be a casualty of the Hendy report, and completion delayed until CP6^▸ (Control Period 6 - The five year period between 2019 and 2024).  Effort will be kept up to electrify from Reading to Didcot for rolling stock testing purposes and then to infill from Maidenhead to Reading for Crossrail then Didcot to Swindon.  Having all those expensive bi-mode IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.)'s land-locked in sidings with nowhere to go will be unacceptable to the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about).  In the short term, on the juice to Swindon, on the diesel to Bristol.

I suspect we'll be keeping the Turbos for a while longer.  How that plays with GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway)'s overall rolling stock cascade plans will have to be seen.

The "Hendy Cuts" is a new one on me,

I don't think there will a cut in such major project, the service pattern of the TV services does not lend itself to a Didcot / Oxford Island indeed GWEP^▸ (Great Western Electrification Program) would have to provide stabling and booking on point at Didcot and the complexity of relocating staff from Oxford to Didcot it might slip a little so the focus can remain on the mainline, if anything the Reading Newbury line would be the one to park into CP6