Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion

[whole diary]

[ChrisB]

I hear NR^» (Network Rail - home page) are still hopeful of additional redoubling work around Hanborough on the Cotswold Line getting into CP6^▸ (Control Period 6 - The five year period between 2019 and 2024) in order that additional services from there to Oxford might run (which also would mean 387s being able to run north out of Oxford rather than terminating there)

[Billhere]

Purely historic reasons, and that it has a turn-back siding (albeit no use for anything longer than a 3 coach Turbo - AFAIK^▸ (as far as I know))

Takes a five car Turbo, but no walking route or safe way to change ends as the driver would have to walk either along the field side of the train at ground level (unacceptable), or walking along the Up Westbury which would have to be blocked by signal protection to let him move between the two units.

If the new trains are of the same length as a turbo (25 metres per car if I remember correctly) a five car would fit.

If they are considering DOO^▸ (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) then the line West of Bedwyn is not set up for it, a situation that should have been remedied years ago, which would have allowed the extention of the Turbo service to Pewsey, and changing ends in Woodborough Loop as was done when they were vehicle handling when the Turbos were new and the Bedwyn turnback siding was occupied by the older DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit)'s. The decision not to do it was made by Victory Holdings ,who took over the service from NSE^▸ (Network South East) on privatisation, stayed a while and then sold out big style to the next owners (Go-Ahead), who never pursued it either.

I used to relieve Trevor at Pewsey when he went on holiday and the locals were always asking why they had such a poor service compared to Bedwyn, and the fact that many drove there to take advantage of the better service proves the point.

[grahame]

Purely historic reasons, and that it has a turn-back siding (albeit no use for anything longer than a 3 coach Turbo - AFAIK^▸ (as far as I know))

I would refer "originally for historic reasons". The service terminating at Bedwyn may well have been due to the presence of the siding originally, but a distinctive traffic has built up and it's no longer just or purely history.

London's where it is for purely historic reasons by the same argument.  It's the first place where it was safe to cross the Thames up the estuary.

[Billhere]

I hear NR^» (Network Rail - home page) are still hopeful of additional redoubling work around Hanborough on the Cotswold Line getting into CP6^▸ (Control Period 6 - The five year period between 2019 and 2024) in order that additional services from there to Oxford might run (which also would mean 387s being able to run north out of Oxford rather than terminating there)

The work on the down loop between Oxford North Junction and Wolvercot seems to have ground to a halt according to colleagues at Oxford Panel.

The problem is there is a big relay room on what would have been the site of the continuation of the loop onto the Cotswolds line, a better idea than the existing plan which is to end the down loop just prior to the Wolvercot bridge and join the Down Chester. All you are doing is moving the bottleneck at North Junction about three miles.

Far better would be to retain the existing new crossover from the down loop onto the Down Chester, and extend the down loop under the bridge and onto the Cotswolds line. Far more flexible operationally.

That relay room may of course disappear when they re signal North of Oxford towards Banbury which as I understand it will be three aspect only instead of four aspect as they did North of Banbury some years ago. The old and worn out two aspect they have at the moment really is like a stranglehold on the line capacity and badly needs upgrading, along with the doubling of the Cotswolds from Wolvercot towards Charlbury.

Always a challenge to get it right on that section.

[IndustryInsider]

I hear NR^» (Network Rail - home page) are still hopeful of additional redoubling work around Hanborough on the Cotswold Line getting into CP6^▸ (Control Period 6 - The five year period between 2019 and 2024) in order that additional services from there to Oxford might run (which also would mean 387s being able to run north out of Oxford rather than terminating there)

The work on the down loop between Oxford North Junction and Wolvercot seems to have ground to a halt according to colleagues at Oxford Panel.

The problem is there is a big relay room on what would have been the site of the continuation of the loop onto the Cotswolds line, a better idea than the existing plan which is to end the down loop just prior to the Wolvercot bridge and join the Down Chester. All you are doing is moving the bottleneck at North Junction about three miles.

Far better would be to retain the existing new crossover from the down loop onto the Down Chester, and extend the down loop under the bridge and onto the Cotswolds line. Far more flexible operationally.

That relay room may of course disappear when they re signal North of Oxford towards Banbury which as I understand it will be three aspect only instead of four aspect as they did North of Banbury some years ago. The old and worn out two aspect they have at the moment really is like a stranglehold on the line capacity and badly needs upgrading, along with the doubling of the Cotswolds from Wolvercot towards Charlbury.

I believe Oxford Panel can't fit in the signalling required for the newly extended loop.  Oxford Panel was due to close originally in 2015, but I believe it is now 2018 so the loop won't be able to open until then.  That also restricts the possibility of modifying the Wolvercote Junction layout to provide the more flexible layout you describe.  Once Didcot controls the Oxford area then hopefully as and when Wolvercote Junction to Charlbury is redoubled (or to Hanborough at least) then Wolvercote Junction can be modified to provide that more flexible layout.

Yes, three aspect signalling from outside of the Oxford area to Kings Sutton AIUI^▸ (as I understand it).  The new signals are currently being installed from (roughly) Heyford to Banbury as the first stage.

[Rhydgaled]

If the new trains are of the same length as a turbo (25 metres per car if I remember correctly) a five car would fit.

The Turbo DMUs^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) are 23m per car I thought, the new 800/801/802 EDMUs will be 25-26m per car (depending on where you measure from). The class 387 EMUs^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit) are either 23m or 20m per car probably.

[paul7575]

All in service Electrostar variants including the most recent 387/1 are 20m vehicles.

Paul

[ChrisB]

I believe Oxford Panel can't fit in the signalling required for the newly extended loop.  Oxford Panel was due to close originally in 2015, but I believe it is now 2018 so the loop won't be able to open until then.  That also restricts the possibility of modifying the Wolvercote Junction layout to provide the more flexible layout you describe.  Once Didcot controls the Oxford area then hopefully as and when Wolvercote Junction to Charlbury is redoubled (or to Hanborough at least) then Wolvercote Junction can be modified to provide that more flexible layout.

I concur - and as CP6^▸ (Control Period 6 - The five year period between 2019 and 2024) starts in 2019, what I described above can still happen.

Yes, three aspect signalling from outside of the Oxford area to Kings Sutton AIUI^▸ (as I understand it).  The new signals are currently being installed from (roughly) Heyford to Banbury as the first stage.

Don't forget the change in Network Rail control is around Heyford - from TVSCC to Saltley....it's the Saltley work you describe. South of Heyford into TVSCC as you say has been delayed into 2018.

[IndustryInsider]

Don't forget the change in Network Rail control is around Heyford - from TVSCC to Saltley....it's the Saltley work you describe. South of Heyford into TVSCC as you say has been delayed into 2018.

Yes indeed, it forms the next stage of what originally was an Oxford-Leamington signalling upgrade, known as the Cherwell Valley Resignalling Scheme, stage one of which was completed back in 2004.  The new signals from Heyford to Banbury will be prefixed OL 'Oxford Leamington' as they are now northwards from Banbury and will significantly reduce headways.  Originally Leamington was to control the route, but now all going to the WMSC at Saltley.  The final stage of that original project will be Heyford to Oxford which should happen when Oxford panel finally closes.  Funny how the lines of an original project get blurred and altered by events over the years.

[Noggin]

Confirmed that going to be 37 new build 387's (as well as the 8 on order) rather than cascaded from Thameslink. First due into service on September 5 apparently.

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/passenger/single-view/view/gwr-finalises-thames-valley-emu-order.html.

[DidcotPunter]

Confirmed that going to be 37 new build 387's (as well as the 8 on order) rather than cascaded from Thameslink. First due into service on September 5 apparently.

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/passenger/single-view/view/gwr-finalises-thames-valley-emu-order.html.

And informed insiders on WNXX^▸ (Stored Unserviceable, Mainline Locos HQ All Classes) forum have confirmed that this means GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) will now not be taking refurbished class 365 units from the GN line.

Apparently GWR are negotiating with Hitachi and DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) for an number of additional AT300s to plug the shortfall between the 45 class 387 units on order and the 58 class 387/365 units originally specified in the DA^▸ (District Attorney) franchise agreement. If approved, the AT300s will be used on the fast services terminating at Oxford (North Cotswold line services are already slated for IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.)/AT300 working) which were originally down for class 387 working, and for through services from Padd to Bedwyn. Use of the bi-mode AT300s would overcome the problem of Didcot-Oxford wiring not being completed before 2019 and enable a through service to continue for Hungerford and Bedwyn users.

[grahame]

And informed insiders on WNXX^▸ (Stored Unserviceable, Mainline Locos HQ All Classes) forum have confirmed that this means GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) will now not be taking refurbished class 365 units from the GN line. ...

Informed insiders would find it very difficult to deny these stories 

There is huge sense in having a single standard fleet (until a problems' found / check's needed on the whole fleet as happened with HEX)

Would I be right in saying that 387s are dual equipped - overhead and 3rd rail - so that (for example) the outer suburban services could be  diverted into Waterloo if there was a problem between Paddington and Reading?

[ChrisB]

As they're new build for GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway), I doubt it's included in the spec....but does anyone *know* for sure?

[IndustryInsider]

Apparently GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) are negotiating with Hitachi and DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) for an number of additional AT300s to plug the shortfall between the 45 class 387 units on order and the 58 class 387/365 units originally specified in the DA^▸ (District Attorney) franchise agreement. If approved, the AT300s will be used on the fast services terminating at Oxford (North Cotswold line services are already slated for IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.)/AT300 working) which were originally down for class 387 working, and for through services from Padd to Bedwyn. Use of the bi-mode AT300s would overcome the problem of Didcot-Oxford wiring not being completed before 2019 and enable a through service to continue for Hungerford and Bedwyn users.

Assuming that all comes to pass then it is an improved situation on what was already quite a good deal for GWR passengers:

As you say, the AT300's will allow the through Bedwyn services to continue - though I have a feeling that many will continue to Westbury or beyond - which was really awkward if Newbury to Bedwyn diesel shuttles had needed to be retained as originally planned.  The turnback at Bedwyn will need to be extended to accomodate a 5-car Hitachi unit.

The more trains with 125mph capability on the main lines the better, and with an all-new fleet of Class 387 and none of the much older Class 365s the eastern end of the GWR routes will have the most modern fleet in the country.  Most welcome news for passengers and staff.

I suspect the DfT is taking a bit of a hammering financially to make all this possible, due to the electrification delays!

[Adelante_CCT]

enable a through service to continue for Hungerford and Bedwyn users.

I'm assuming the turn back at Bedwyn would need modifying to accept 5 car units.

Having additional IEPs^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) taking over the fast Oxfords and Newbury/Bedwyn/Westbury was always the sensible option, no need to mess around with battery operated 387s etc.