What rights do you have(refers to unable to get a bike off of an HST)

[whole diary]

[BerkshireBugsy]

Surely the driver stops at the 'HST^▸ (High Speed Train) 2+8' board regardless of the formation of the 8 coaches. 

At any station with less than space for a full 8 coaches there are two stop boards, one for normal and one for reverse direction. This is what I'd expect at Twyford if it can only take 7 coaches. Although in that situation there would only be the one 2+7 stop board, as the train can then be fully accommodated.

I've never noticed these normal and reversed stop boards at a Thatcham station which I believe only has enough space for 5 cars. When the westbound trains are running in reverse (first class at front, TGS at rear) the drivers cab is way beyond the signal.

Out of interest in a case such as this does the responsibility for checking the signal aspect  lay with the TM^‡(resolve)?

[IndustryInsider]

The TGS should always be platformed, but there is the odd location where signals/viaducts/tunnels etc. can prevent HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) stopping properly if they are in reverse formation.

Twyford down main platform is fine (isn't that where that train usually stops?), but the down relief platform, though plenty long enough, has a signal half-way down it, so that would cause problems if in reverse formation for a 2+8. Perhaps there was a platform swap from its usual platform which caught the TM^‡(resolve) out, so he hadn't checked for Twyford bikes at Paddington?  But, as Super Guard says, the business of the train shouldn't affect that - anyway he doesn't exactly sound like one of our finest!

[BerkshireBugsy]

The TGS should always be platformed, but there is the odd location where signals/viaducts/tunnels etc. can prevent HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) stopping properly if they are in reverse formation.

Twyford down main platform is fine (isn't that where that train usually stops?), but the down relief platform, though plenty long enough, has a signal half-way down it, so that would cause problems if in reverse formation for a 2+8. Perhaps there was a platform swap from its usual platform which caught the TM^‡(resolve) out, so he hadn't checked for Twyford bikes at Paddington?  But, as Super Guard says, the business of the train shouldn't affect that - anyway he doesn't exactly sound like one of our finest!

As far as I recall we arrived at the normal platform (down main?) so I really don't know what happened.

I'm being kind here by saying there were some issues we weren't aware of.

[stuving]

Twyford down main platform is fine (isn't that where that train usually stops?), but the down relief platform, though plenty long enough, has a signal half-way down it, so that would cause problems if in reverse formation for a 2+8. Perhaps there was a platform swap from its usual platform which caught the TM^‡(resolve) out, so he hadn't checked for Twyford bikes at Paddington?  But, as Super Guard says, the business of the train shouldn't affect that - anyway he doesn't exactly sound like one of our finest!

Officially, in the Timetable Planning Rules, the lengths in m are:

Twyford	5 (Bay)	110	Top of ramp to stop blocks
Twyford ML	1 (Down Main Line)	172
Twyford ML	2 (Up Main Line)	182
Twyford RL	3 (Down Relief Line)	244
Twyford RL	4 (Up Relief Line)	250
Twyford RL	4 (Up Relief Line)	180	Signal TR214 to Top of ramp (London end)

The Sectional Appendix agrees (with the shorter P4). Presumably for Up trains the whole platform is available.

Now 8x23 m is 184 m, so Twyford is a problem for the few HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) that stop at P1. It is also a bit of an odd man out in having longer platforms on the Relief Lines than on the Mains.

You might imagine that P1 at least would have been extended by now, or both will be soon for longer trains. But then, the general idea for post-Reading, post-IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.), and post-electrification is that there is no scope for stopping trains on the Mains between Paddington and Reading, so IEPs will never need to stop here.

The "peak-buster" 12-car EMUs^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit) that have been mentioned in official sources, and are an inherent part of the IEP capacity increase, have never become official enough to trigger plans for longer platforms. When this happens, it will be the Relief Line platforms at Slough, Maidenhead, and maybe even Twyford that need lengthening for them (if these are 12x23 m rather than 12x20 m).

[Super Guard]

As has been mentioned there are 2+8 and 2+7 HST^▸ (High Speed Train) stop boards for when a train has first class leading.  If there was a signal on the end of the platform then fair enough you have the risk if it's red/on.  However, this isn't the case at Twyford DM, so i'm still confused why this was an issue, unless there happened not to be a 2+7/8 board - but having said that, the TM^‡(resolve) can be between the front 2 coaches and buzz the driver '1' to stop at the appropriate moment, if a clear understanding was reached prior to leaving Paddington.

Hopefully more to it in this case.

[bobm]

There are HST^▸ (High Speed Train) stop boards on both the Down Main and Down Relief at Twyford

This is the 2+7 on the Down Main (with a train approaching on the Up Main)



Not quite so clear in this view of the Down Relief - but the 2+7 board is on the post just after signal TR114 (mentioned by Industry Insider earlier.

[thetrout]

I wonder if this had something to do with the service in question actually being the 18:06 to Frome.

Regardless of the formation, the HST^▸ (High Speed Train) service to Frome always terminates with the rear coaches 4 coaches aligned to the platform. This is because of the Signal at the London End being in close proximity to the platform. But more crucially the issue of the Power Car otherwise stopping on a Bridge making it impossible or rather dangerous for the driver to change ends. At Frome assuming normal formation, the TGS is always way off the platform with passengers invited to sit in First Class beyond Westbury. Some TMs^‡(resolve) insist on this to prevent someone trying to open a locked door and the issue of it being stuck on the catch.

This service used to be operated by a Class 180 before FGW^▸ (First Great Western) got rid of them. In that case a Class 180 could comfortably fit on the platform at Frome. A HST does not fit by any stretch of the imagination so SDO^▸ (Selective Door Opening) is used.

Confusingly the 15:55 service to London Paddington from Frome (Starts Taunton) does stop with the Power Car on the bridge. This service was/is always operated by a HST. The down call at Frome (PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains) - Taunton service) has since been removed though!

This is Frome... We have to be different and more awkward than everywhere else apparently

[Super Guard]

Well yes, that would be applicable for Frome, but we are discussing approaching Twyford 

[bobm]

Returning to Twyford, if it was agreed with all the staff concerned beforehand, is there the facility to pull up at the normal place with the TGS off the end, everyone gets off, doors locked and then the train moved forward so the TGS is by the platform and any bikes unloaded.  Would obviously add to dwell times when paths are at a premium on the Down Main at Twyford but a possible workaround for the odd occasion when the train is in reverse formation?

[thetrout]

Well yes, that would be applicable for Frome, but we are discussing approaching Twyford 

Yes. Which is why I mentioned it specifically for the 18:06. My thoughts were an arrangement by Driver and TM^‡(resolve) for ease of consistency so the TM only need be in roughly the same place each time. The 18:06 calls at a fair number of stations with short platforms. So for the sake of the TM and passengers sanity. It could well have been easier.

With the TGS off the platform at Frome anyway assuming normal formation, It also had me wondering if the service would take bikes considering some of the other short platforms the service calls at.

[BerkshireBugsy]

Many thanks to all who replied.

[Richard Fairhurst]

At any station with less than space for a full 8 coaches there are two stop boards, one for normal and one for reverse direction. This is what I'd expect at Twyford if it can only take 7 coaches. Although in that situation there would only be the one 2+7 stop board, as the train can then be fully accommodated.

I remembered to check this morning at Charlbury, and there's only the standard 2+7 and 2+8 stop boards; there's no extra boards for trains running in reverse.

(Incidentally, why is it that there aren't stop-boards for the 180s at Cotswold Line stations? Is there an in-cab display or something?)

[IndustryInsider]

I remembered to check this morning at Charlbury, and there's only the standard 2+7 and 2+8 stop boards; there's no extra boards for trains running in reverse.

(Incidentally, why is it that there aren't stop-boards for the 180s at Cotswold Line stations? Is there an in-cab display or something?)

At Charlbury, the 2+7/8 boards at the London end of the station are the normal formation stop boards (reverse formation trains stop with the power car just off the platform end ramps, and at the Worcester end of the station the 2+7/8 boards are for trains in reverse (in this case normal formation trains stop with the power car just off the platform end ramps).

There are no stop boards for Class 180s because they always stop with the cab on the platform - their SDO^▸ (Selective Door Opening) can only be used in one direction from the cab backwards, so you couldn't for example open the rear three coaches only.  Doesn't usually cause too many problems as they're shorter in length of course.

[JayMac]

I'm told that it's not uncommon for drivers to stop at the HST^▸ (High Speed Train) boards regardless of whether they are running a set in reverse formation. In such a situation the TM^‡(resolve) can give them '6' on the buzzer to draw forward as necessary.

[Super Guard]

I'm told that it's not uncommon for drivers to stop at the HST^▸ (High Speed Train) boards regardless of whether they are running a set in reverse formation. In such a situation the TM^‡(resolve) can give them '6' on the buzzer to draw forward as necessary.

I think there's confusion with reverse formation and stop-board usage.

The 2+7/2+8 HST stop-boards are provided where the HST will not fully fit on a platform AND first class is leading.  Heading towards London this is correct formation trains, heading away from London, this is when trains are in reverse formation.

The purpose of the stop boards is to always platform the TGS.  Where a TGS is leading, the driver will either pull the front power car off the platform, or if long enough will just stop at the end of the platform.

BNM, i'm totally confused by your statement because if a driver stops at these stop boards with the TGS leading then the TGS is already off the end of the platform and no amount of drawing platform will re-platform the TGS.  If the TGS is trailing, then stopping at these boards will have TGS platformed anyway.

The only time in several years of being a TM I have ever known a HST not platform the TGS was when working with a Paddington driver who personally would not pass a signal (even if proceed aspect) at Thatcham and Bedwyn going West and first class was leading.

*There may be a local instruction applicable for Cotswold/Hereford/Wales services which are routes I never signed, but not platforming the TGS is simply not SOP^▸ (Standard Operating Instructions).