SDO............why the discrepancies

[whole diary]

[vacman]

I believe that they are going back to the old system soon, only slight problem with the old system is where there are signals on the ends of platforms (you probably know more than me 12hoursunday as your a driver!!), I know that before SDO^▸ (Selective Door Opening) there was an agreement between NR^» (Network Rail - home page) and FGW^▸ (First Great Western) that if an HST^▸ (High Speed Train) that stopped at Saltash didn't have the road onto the single line on the bridge then the train would be stopped at the preceeding signal until they had the road across the bridge then they would let the train in to the platform, anyone who knows Saltash will know that if the signal on the up line is "on" then only the power car and the front coach will fit onto the platform as the signal is half way along the platform.

[BandHcommuter]

We now have HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) calling at Bedwyn, Hungerford, Kintbury, Thatcham, Theale and Reading West on my route. A couple of observations from my experience as a passenger looking out of the window:

When going in the London direction, the rear coaches of the train stop over the level crossings at Kintbury and Thatcham, and I see quite large queues of traffic building up. If the trains could pull up further, this might be avoided, and the standard coaches would be on the platform.

Some guards seem to rely on their own observation from the "control panel" point to make sure that passengers have shut the doors behind them before departure. Others walk the full length of the platform to check, which increases station time. The overall time-keeping therefore seems to depend on who's on duty. Actual journey times can easily exceed timetabled journey times (which were already extended for the HSTs) by a good 10 minutes, just in time sat at stations.

HSTs have replaced 180s, which in turn replaced Turbos on the B&H^▸ (Berks and Hants - railway line from Reading to Taunton via Westbury) peak stoppers. My rough estimates of first class to standard class seating ratios on the example of the train that arrives in Paddington before 0830 are:

6 car 166 (pre Dec 06):   64:480 (1:7.5)
10 car 180 (pre Dec 07): 84:456 (1: 5.4)
HST (from Dec 07):          100:400 (1:4)

Sorry if my numbers are inaccurate, but you get the general idea. The number of standard seats has in fact reduced (accepted that HST seats are more comfortable than Turbos) and the proportion of first has increased. The take up of first class on these trains is relatively low (compared with, say, London-Bristol services), and some passengers may now even be tempted to down-trade for local journeys since standard class in an HST offers greater comfort than first class in a Turbo. The result is that standard class is now more crowded than before, and 1st class is suffering from relative desertion. To make best use of capacity, FGW^▸ (First Great Western) need to consider how they can optimise the usage of the first class usage on these "local HSTs", perhaps by pricing or other incentives, or even partial declassification.

[vacman]

We now have HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) calling at Bedwyn, Hungerford, Kintbury, Thatcham, Theale and Reading West on my route. A couple of observations from my experience as a passenger looking out of the window:

When going in the London direction, the rear coaches of the train stop over the level crossings at Kintbury and Thatcham, and I see quite large queues of traffic building up. If the trains could pull up further, this might be avoided, and the standard coaches would be on the platform.

Some guards seem to rely on their own observation from the "control panel" point to make sure that passengers have shut the doors behind them before departure. Others walk the full length of the platform to check, which increases station time. The overall time-keeping therefore seems to depend on who's on duty. Actual journey times can easily exceed timetabled journey times (which were already extended for the HSTs) by a good 10 minutes, just in time sat at stations.

HSTs have replaced 180s, which in turn replaced Turbos on the B&H^▸ (Berks and Hants - railway line from Reading to Taunton via Westbury) peak stoppers. My rough estimates of first class to standard class seating ratios on the example of the train that arrives in Paddington before 0830 are:

6 car 166 (pre Dec 06):   64:480 (1:7.5)
10 car 180 (pre Dec 07): 84:456 (1: 5.4)
HST (from Dec 07):          100:400 (1:4)

Sorry if my numbers are inaccurate, but you get the general idea. The number of standard seats has in fact reduced (accepted that HST seats are more comfortable than Turbos) and the proportion of first has increased. The take up of first class on these trains is relatively low (compared with, say, London-Bristol services), and some passengers may now even be tempted to down-trade for local journeys since standard class in an HST offers greater comfort than first class in a Turbo. The result is that standard class is now more crowded than before, and 1st class is suffering from relative desertion. To make best use of capacity, FGW^▸ (First Great Western) need to consider how they can optimise the usage of the first class usage on these "local HSTs", perhaps by pricing or other incentives, or even partial declassification.

Maybeon local journeys then just have a ^5 suplement for First class? similar to weekend first?

[Doctor Gideon Ceefax]

I think the vast majority of the problem with all of this is that HST^▸ (High Speed Train)'s are now being used to deputise for local stopping commuter services, which they just are not designed for. SDO^▸ (Selective Door Opening) and serving these stops is a positive step, if it allows HST's to pick up and set down when local services are cancelled or delayed, but they just aren't suitable traction for stopping services.

Stopping HST's at places such as Tilehurst, Pangbourne, Thatcham or Reading West is rather strange it must be said. It is similar to using Virgin's Pendolinos to serve Wembley Central, Cheddington, Wolverton, or using East Coast 225's on Peterborough - Kings Cross stoppers. I agree there is a case for additional calls of HSTs at sizeable towns at the very extremities of the old NSE^▸ (Network South East) network (e.g.) Hungerford and support stopping more trains at Didcot Parkway.

I'd also question as to whether places like Worle and Weston Milton actually warrant an HST to London. It's not dissimilar to stopping Wolverhampton to London Intercity Trains at all intermediate suburban stops between Wolverhampton and New Street or Birmingham International and Coventry. Surely the vast majority of these people are commuting just to Bristol?

Great Western appear to be stuffed up somewhere where local and commuter services are concerned, and don't have enough suitable local and regional stock, and it appears to be a rushed and panicky solution, to what is a long term problem. The priority should really be looking at suitable ways to provide high quality commuter and regional services. No doubt someone will point out that there is some good reason why companies like London Midland can have a fleet of turbostars and new 350's on order to replace their 150 and 321 fleet, where as Great Western cannot. Personally, I think a decent order of a fleet of 4 or 5 car 172s with corridor connections for Thames Valley and West services is a far better use of money, and would do far more for the reptuation of Great Western than tinkering around with the electrics of 30 year old trains designed for limited stop mainline express routes. As for the question of who will pay for it, who's paying for the recent London Midland, South Eastern or Southern orders? If they can get new traction, why can't Great Western? And isn't getting rid of 180s largely insane?

[Btline]

Welcome to the forum.

getting rid of the 180s was mad!

Getting new stock requires FGW^▸ (First Great Western) to spend mon^y! That is why they have not.

London Midland's order might benefit FGW (cascading 150s to FGW, if they have not yet clapped out!).

[John R]

I'd also question as to whether places like Worle and Weston Milton actually warrant an HST^▸ (High Speed Train) to London. It's not dissimilar to stopping Wolverhampton to London Intercity Trains at all intermediate suburban stops between Wolverhampton and New Street or Birmingham International and Coventry. Surely the vast majority of these people are commuting just to Bristol?

They are indeed. The services fulfill a dual purpose, running as commuter services into Bristol, and then almost completely empty and refill again at Bristol. Indeed the 0645 from Exeter was only added as an additional commuter service in the infamous December 06 timetable change.

[Doctor Gideon Ceefax]

They are indeed. The services fulfill a dual purpose, running as commuter services into Bristol, and then almost completely empty and refill again at Bristol. Indeed the 0645 from Exeter was only added as an additional commuter service in the infamous December 06 timetable change.

Seems logical therefore to provide an improved and more suitable commuter / regional type service on this part of the network, and leave the HST^▸ (High Speed Train)'s to what they do best, i.e. 125mph running with limited stops. HST's with their door layout and acceleration just aren't suitable trains for this sort of job.

I'd assume there is still some demand for direct Weston to London services though, so maybe have a small number of through ones, which only serve Weston and Nailsea (for easier changing purposes than Bristol), assuming a decent alternative and more suitable commuter service can be provided to make up for the smaller stations.

Of course this isn't likely to happen unless more stock is sourced from somewhere.

[John R]

Well it's a long established practice to utilise Inter-City trains as commuter services from Weston to Bristol. In 1973  there was a 0630 from Weston to Paddington calling all stations (including Parson St and Bedminster) to Bristol, and another at 0807. So I don't think one can blame FGW^▸ (First Great Western) for starting the practice, and its an effective utilisation of good quality stock which otherwise would be sitting in the depot awaiting its first turn. The introduction of a fourth HST^▸ (High Speed Train) last year was a very welcome improvement, augmented this December with stops on a XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) service at Yatton and Nailsea.

Mind you, looking at that 1973 timetable and things have improved a bit since then. Miss the 0936 from Nailsea and you'd have to wait until 1307 for the next train to Bristol. And on Sunday, Nailsea was closed but services stopped at Bedminster and Parson St! 

[12hoursunday]

I believe that they are going back to the old system soon, only slight problem with the old system is where there are signals on the ends of platforms (you probably know more than me 12hoursunday as your a driver!!),

In the past the situation you mentioned has always came down to the driver and the guard coming to a clear understanding also when a train working a down service in reverse formation the driver will enquire with the guard where he wants the train stopped and what will happen when that plan might change. (i.e when it has been to decided  to stop the front of the train on the platform (First Class) and a passenger has placed a bike in the van!). It's all common sense really but the nanny state has has bubbled over into FGW^▸ (First Great Western) and seems like the management doesn't like us train crew to make the decisions that might make things easier for everyone.

The take up of first class on these trains is relatively low (compared with, say, London-Bristol services), and some passengers may now even be tempted to down-trade for local journeys since standard class in an HST^▸ (High Speed Train) offers greater comfort than first class in a Turbo. The result is that standard class is now more crowded than before, and 1st class is suffering from relative desertion. To make best use of capacity, FGW need to consider how they can optimise the usage of the first class usage on these "local HSTs", perhaps by pricing or other incentives, or even partial declassification.

I have wondered why as FGW have hired in extra HST's to replace 180's diagram's then why not have 14 HST sets with say 6 coaches 5 STD & 1 First then these trains could cover the turns that were worked by the 180's

[Btline]

I believe that they are going back to the old system soon, only slight problem with the old system is where there are signals on the ends of platforms (you probably know more than me 12hoursunday as your a driver!!),

In the past the situation you mentioned has always came down to the driver and the guard coming to a clear understanding also when a train working a down service in reverse formation the driver will enquire with the guard where he wants the train stopped and what will happen when that plan might change. (i.e when it has been to decided  to stop the front of the train on the platform (First Class) and a passenger has placed a bike in the van!). It's all common sense really but the nanny state has has bubbled over into FGW^▸ (First Great Western) and seems like the management doesn't like us train crew to make the decisions that might make things easier for everyone.

The take up of first class on these trains is relatively low (compared with, say, London-Bristol services), and some passengers may now even be tempted to down-trade for local journeys since standard class in an HST^▸ (High Speed Train) offers greater comfort than first class in a Turbo. The result is that standard class is now more crowded than before, and 1st class is suffering from relative desertion. To make best use of capacity, FGW need to consider how they can optimise the usage of the first class usage on these "local HSTs", perhaps by pricing or other incentives, or even partial declassification.

I have wondered why as FGW have hired in extra HST's to replace 180's diagram's then why not have 14 HST sets with say 6 coaches 5 STD & 1 First then these trains could cover the turns that were worked by the 180's

Good idea!

[devon_metro]

Something along the lines of Cross Country (old)

6 standard TGS TS TS TS TS TSD = 488
1 First TF = 48

Thats rough calculations based on:
TGS = 76 seats
TS = 84 seats
TSD = 76 seats
TF = 48 seats

I'm not actually sure of the actual numbers.

[Jim]

Some guards seem to rely on their own observation from the "control panel" point to make sure that passengers have shut the doors behind them before departure. Others walk the full length of the platform to check, which increases station time. The overall time-keeping therefore seems to depend on who's on duty. Actual journey times can easily exceed timetabled journey times (which were already extended for the HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train)) by a good 10 minutes, just in time sat at stations.

It does depend what view they have got. It is posiable for both cases to happen. I mean, where the light reflects on the door. Also, a good way to tell is the sound. Sometimes however, if a guard is unsure, they will walk the train, Safety FIRST.

[Btline]

and "service" 999th (after profits etc.) !!!!!!

[smokey]

I'm pretty sure it's profit first, safety second if and when they can get away with it.

[devon_metro]

I'm pretty sure it's profit first, safety second if and when they can get away with it.

Utter nonsence