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Chris125
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« Reply #60 on: March 25, 2015, 00:11:10 » |
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If they are going to run as 10-car all the time, that would largely settle the capacity concerns on that route (south Wales and the Cotswolds still looking in trouble) but then you'd be paying for 10-car when you only need 9-car to provide the same number of seats if you had fixed formation 9-car units instead. I see no need, nor desire, to run full length sets all the time - if that was the intention they wouldn't have bothered with all the 5-car sets. Clearly the fleet composition is designed to give them flexibility, to tailor train lengths to the expected demand rather than have full length trains to Penzance at all times and that seems perfectly sensible to me. |
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IndustryInsider
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« Reply #61 on: March 25, 2015, 10:04:34 » |
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Yes indeed, I'm sure the final timetable will feature much more portion working than my sample did, I didn't want to spend ages making things too complicated though to prove how far that number of units could stretch to provide a lot more seats per day from all stations on the route than is currently the case.
Personally though, I would have thought a couple more 9-cars and a few less 5-cars would have been a better balance, but will defer to those who have done the calculations and presume they've got them right until proved otherwise.
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To view my GWML▸ Electrification cab video 'before and after' video comparison, as well as other videos of the new layout at Reading and 'before and after' comparisons of the Cotswold Line Redoubling scheme, see: http://www.dailymotion.com/user/IndustryInsider/ |
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ChrisB
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« Reply #62 on: March 25, 2015, 10:10:18 » |
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Loadings are very light November/January - Mid-March west of Plymouth....1/3 of the yeart where 5cars to PNZ will be ample.
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broadgage
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« Reply #63 on: March 25, 2015, 10:21:52 » |
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My concern is that with so few full length trains and with most being half length, that a great many services will be operated by half length units.
Flexibility is a fine thing in theory, but I have seen so many new shorter trains introduced on different routes, and in every case "flexible" was railway speak for shorter.
Both the original order for IEPs▸ and the proposed add on order for a sub fleet of similar DMUs▸ for far west services consist mainly of half length trains.
A 5 car unit is a substantial backwards step in capacity compared to an HST▸ , and a full length train is only a modest improvement.
Experience of new shorter trains on other routes suggests that "flexibility" means shorter trains at busy times.
Also I am not convinced that DMUs are suitable for long routes such as to Penzance. Luggage space will be totally inadequate for summer holiday traffic, indeed one of the reasons for keeping HSTs for the far west was luggage space.
Largely bus style seating, and the absence of a buffet will no doubt enhance the experience !
I thought that the new trains were going to be "purpose designed inter city trains" and not short inter urban DMUs.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU▸ is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
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ChrisB
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« Reply #64 on: March 25, 2015, 10:34:15 » |
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AT300s are similar to SouthEastern's Javelin's.....
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Rhydgaled
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« Reply #65 on: March 25, 2015, 11:12:49 » |
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I thought that the new trains were going to be "purpose designed inter city trains" East Coast is getting around 30 of those, when they don't really need them (since they have IC225s) and a few have been ordered for PAD» -Bristol/Wales but not enough for Wales. The rest of GW▸ gets 'sardine midgets' instead. |
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Don't DOO▸ it, keep the guard (but it probably wouldn't be a bad idea if the driver unlocked the doors on arrival at calling points).
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Chris125
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« Reply #66 on: March 25, 2015, 16:23:53 » |
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My concern is that with so few full length trains and with most being half length, that a great many services will be operated by half length units. If the alternative is 19 HSTs▸ that simply isn't the case - with the extra capacity per carriage, the extra carriages per train, and the wider increase in services also being proposed this represents a considerable improvement. |
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CCTV99
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« Reply #67 on: March 30, 2015, 23:05:57 » |
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Largely bus style seating....
I thought that the new trains were going to be "purpose designed inter city trains" and not short inter urban DMUs▸ .
They are purpose designed inter city trains., regardless of their length. |
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CCTV99
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« Reply #68 on: March 30, 2015, 23:13:29 » |
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AT300s are similar to SouthEastern's Javelin's.....
AT300 is the family name for a range of HS▸ trains. The Javelin (class 395) and the Super Express Train (class 800/801) are all AT300 derivatives. The new order for the SW services is for an SET▸ with uprated engines and larger fuel capacity. They are struggling with a description for them because they want to differentiate the order from the trains ordered as part of the IEP▸ . Hence the (possibly temporary) use of the generic AT300 title, until they are given a name or TOPS▸ class description. |
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broadgage
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« Reply #69 on: March 30, 2015, 23:24:14 » |
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Largely bus style seating....
I thought that the new trains were going to be "purpose designed inter city trains" and not short inter urban DMUs▸ .
They are purpose designed inter city trains., regardless of their length. Really ? mainly 5 car DMUs, without buffet, with very limited luggage space, and underfloor engines roaring, rattling and farting away sounds to me like at best, an inter urban DMU not an intercity train. I remember being told how wonderful the new shorter voyager trains would be, but it is now accepted that the voyagers are too short, noisy, lack luggage space, and are generally not suited to long journeys. So have lessons been learned ? not likely ! lets order some more short cramped DMUs for inter city use. Edit note: Quote marks fixed, for clarity. CfN. |
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« Last Edit: March 31, 2015, 00:13:46 by Chris from Nailsea »
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU▸ is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
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ellendune
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« Reply #70 on: March 31, 2015, 07:52:03 » |
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Really ? mainly 5 car DMUs▸ , without buffet, with very limited luggage space, and underfloor engines roaring, rattling and farting away sounds to me like at best, an inter urban DMU not an intercity train.
If your description proves true then you will be correct and they will be a very expensive failure. However since they are coming now, whether we like it or not, let us wait and see what they are like. |
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ChrisB
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« Reply #71 on: March 31, 2015, 08:59:18 » |
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And you're totally guessing about luggage space as you haven't seen any design....
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broadgage
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« Reply #72 on: March 31, 2015, 09:00:44 » |
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Much of what I predict is known to be true, rather than being an opinion.
We know as a fact that the order already placed is for mainly half length units, with full length being in the minority.
We know as a fact that they will have underfloor engines.
We also know as a virtual certainty that most of the seats (as in more than half) will be bus style without tables, this is as shown on the drawings published.
We also know as a virtual certainty that no buffet will be provided, this again is as shown on published drawings.
I grant that the last two points are not absolutely certain since the interior layout is flexible. But does anyone really believe that a buffet, and all facing seats at tables are to be retrofitted ?
The lack of luggage space is a reasonable inference to be made from the scarcity of table seats (no space for bags between seat backs) and the absence of power cars and the luggage space therein.
Voyager mark 2, at best.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU▸ is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
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ChrisB
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« Reply #73 on: March 31, 2015, 09:09:50 » |
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We know as a fact that the order already placed is for mainly half length units, with full length being in the minority. But the proposed order is much more balanced, I think. Any so what if they are - there are definite plans to run in multiple. We also know as a virtual certainty that most of the seats (as in more than half) will be bus style without tables, this is as shown on the drawings published. For the IEP▸ Order yes. You have no clue how the additional order is to be configured which will be to the operators wishes, with no DfT» input as they're privately financed. And it's well known that half the population (ie women) prefer the privacy of these airline (not bus) seats to table seating where men play footsie. The lack of luggage space is a reasonable inference to be made from the scarcity of table seats (no space for bags between seat backs) and the absence of power cars and the luggage space therein. luggage space is like road provision - you supply it & it'll generate its own traffic. You could never have too much even if each seat came with its own luggage space instead of a seat beside it 0- that would still fill. Better to stop people using them to move house....:-) |
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Western Enterprise
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« Reply #74 on: March 31, 2015, 14:13:31 » |
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Much of what I predict is known to be true, Predicting the future to be known ?  |
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