IEP - Capacity shortfall or plenty of seats?

[whole diary]

[Chris from Nailsea]

From the BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page):

First new high-speed train arrives in Southampton

The first "Super Express" train, that will replace ageing trains in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom), has arrived from Japan.

Shipped to Southampton, the train is part of the ^7.5bn modernisation of the Great Western railway line. It will be used as a test train by staff on the rail network from April.

The 122 trains, which are longer and faster than those currently in service, are expected to start carrying passengers in 2017.

Produced by Hitachi for the Intercity Express Programme, the trains will be used on Great Western and East Coast lines. They are capable of running at up to 140mph (225kmph).

Of the trains ordered, 12 are being manufactured in Kudamatsu City and shipped over. The remaining 110 will be constructed in Newton Aycliffe, County Durham.


The train is one of 12 being shipped over from Japan

[Super Guard]

Faster? 

[Rhydgaled]

Faster? 

They will be faster yes (at accelerating out of a station anyway), but longer? The majority of the GWML^▸ (Great Western Main Line) fleet still isn't planned to be, as far as we know.

[ChrisB]

140mph as opposed to 125mph....it's in the article

[IndustryInsider]

140mph as opposed to 125mph....it's in the article

Though I reckon at least ten years before that might be utilised in service.

[ChrisB]

ERTMS^▸ (European Rail Traffic Management System.) is needed first....

[PhilWakely]

140mph as opposed to 125mph....it's in the article

Though I reckon at least ten years before that might be utilised in service.

How much network mileage is currently cleared for >125mph running? Presumably there must be some, otherwise the recorded speeds in excess of 140mph could not have happened (even though these were under very controlled circumstances)?

[IndustryInsider]

Currently there are no sections authorised for over 125mph under normal operating, except on HS1^▸ (High Speed line 1 - St Pancras to Channel Tunnel).  It is now considered that in-cab signalling is required (although the ECML^▸ (East Coast Main Line) did have 140mph running with a flashing green aspect in years gone by).  As ChrisB says ERTMS^▸ (European Rail Traffic Management System.) is required first and with ETCS^▸ (European Train Control System) Level 2 being installed on the GWML^▸ (Great Western Main Line) over the coming years that will become possible, but with lineside signals not being scheduled to be removed until 2025 that is the earliest that speeds could be increased - hence my ten years comment.

[Tim]

The current GWML^▸ (Great Western Main Line) isn't universally 125mph.  It did strike me that with better acceleration of electric stock the case for easing up the speed on sections which previously would have been considered too short to be worth it might now be viable?  On some sections maybe you wouldn't even need to do any engineering work on the ground (although I am sure there would be engineers doing paperwork) to increase the speed limits other than putting up new signs.

There must be some bits of track where you have a straight bit capable of supporting a higher speed but it is sandwiched between two tight corners such that the straight is currently too short to have a higher speed limit.  But with better acceleration it might be worth raising the limit on the straight bit.  Regenerative braking would mitigate the energy lost by speeding up and slowing down too often.

Ready to be corrected if that is a non-starter. 

[Rhydgaled]

Some of the reports I've read suggest that passenger services have been run at 140mph on the ECML^▸ (East Coast Main Line), but I cannot confirm this for certain. My best evidence for this is the fact there is a 140mph linespeed board from the ECML in the National Railway Museum and I'm pretty sure they wouldn't put up special linespeed boards for trains with special permission to overspeed, such as when 91110 did over 160mph.

traintesting.com reports that:

the line speed between Peterborough and Grantham was increased to 140 mile/h to allow the 91's to show their paces. This was the famous Stoke Bank where the Gresley Class A4 'Mallard' had broken the world speed record for steam in 1938. The signalling was modified to have a 'fifth aspect' utilising a flashing green to indicate that there were at least two blocks clear ahead of the train. Many was the time we had to brake for the last curve in the Down direction (uphill) which had a 135 mile/h restriction!

I think that's probably the only section of UK^▸ (United Kingdom) 'conventional' railway ever officially given a linespeed above 125mph although special arangments allow non-public workings above the official linespeed at times, as suggested at the same link as above:

We also undertook a few demonstration runs when we ran at 140 mile/h, where the line speed was 125 mile/h, all the way from KX to Edinburgh arriving there in the record time of three and a half hours!

As ChrisB says ERTMS^▸ (European Rail Traffic Management System.) is required first and with ETCS^▸ (European Train Control System) Level 2 being installed on the GWML^▸ (Great Western Main Line) over the coming years that will become possible, but with lineside signals not being scheduled to be removed until 2025 that is the earliest that speeds could be increased - hence my ten years comment.

Not sure how it works, but you might not have to remove the lineside signals. If the in-cab system is overlaid with the existing signals and the on-board kit is guaranteed to always agree with the signal aspects...

[SandTEngineer]

Just out of interest the Flashing Green signals on the ECML^▸ (East Coast Main Line) are still working to this day so perhaps they might just let IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) show what it could do elsewhere

[IndustryInsider]

As ChrisB says ERTMS^▸ (European Rail Traffic Management System.) is required first and with ETCS^▸ (European Train Control System) Level 2 being installed on the GWML^▸ (Great Western Main Line) over the coming years that will become possible, but with lineside signals not being scheduled to be removed until 2025 that is the earliest that speeds could be increased - hence my ten years comment.

Not sure how it works, but you might not have to remove the lineside signals. If the in-cab system is overlaid with the existing signals and the on-board kit is guaranteed to always agree with the signal aspects...

You would want to remove the lineside signals though as the additional paths (and possibly 140mph speeds) you can gain from in-cab signalling couldn't be realised if the old signalling was still in place.  Not to mention maintenance and renewal costs of track side signalling.  ERTMS will be basically tested live with the back up of conventional signalling before that conventional signalling is removed, paving the way for improvements - a process which will take many years.

[4064ReadingAbbey]

Some of the reports I've read suggest that passenger services have been run at 140mph on the ECML^▸ (East Coast Main Line), but I cannot confirm this for certain.

As far as I know there were never any services for paying passengers run at 140mph on the ECML. The signals were put in for trials and test runs were made, and one high speed blast from Kings Cross to Edinburgh which was reported on at the time by Roger Ford of Modern Railways.

Reportedly the Railway Inspectorate did not approve 140mph for general use because of the reduced signal sighting times. However the signalling hardware was left in place as it served no purpose to remove it.

[Richard Fairhurst]

The first "Super Express" train, that will replace ageing trains in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom), has arrived from Japan.

One has to wonder what sort of trains don't age.

[JayMac]

The first "Super Express" train, that will replace ageing trains in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom), has arrived from Japan.

One has to wonder what sort of trains don't age.

Class 57s? aka Ship of Theseus, aka Trigger's Broom.